The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

mudpuppy

Why are you laughing about someone suggesting the use of violent, outdated, pointless techniques on puppies is a good thing?  

But at a point in time, it was ok for you to do it.  Why did you do it?

.:.

It's human nature to judge somebody if they have a polar opposite opinion on something about which you feel very strongly.  In order to prevent that from becoming apparent, we'd have to prevent people from disagreeing with each other at all.  Would make for a pretty boring forum, IMHO.  

Back to topic...if people have further thoughts on alpha rolling, rather than the nature of this thread.   

Both of my dogs have and are trained using positive reinforcement.  I do not know the correct terminology, so please bare with me, I do use corrections, in the form of soft "eh eh" .  When I say this they stop whatever it is they are doing and look to me for guidance, they know that this means I would like them to change their behavior.  Once they have adjusted their behavior it is marked with a "yes". 

I do not claim to be perfect, and I am still learning, but I have two totally different dogs, who were trained in the same manner.  Snuffa, I can flip around, and wrestle to no end, on his back, four legs in the air, and he will be begging for more.... while Kayjin would ave a heart attack if anyone tried to play with him in this manner.  My point is... it seems to me that all dogs are different, just like some people.  what is "abusive" to one dog may not be to another. 

The same would go for horses (of which I am way more familiar than dogs)  I have worked with ALL different types of horses, in dressage.  Things I have done with some horses would have scared the living daylights out of others!  You learn to adjust your style and depending on the horses temperament.  My trainer usually had me work with the "head case" type horses, because my nature is to be on the softer side, I did well with the ones that many others could not ride.

Like Silly Sally said  about "good touch and bad touch", I would assume it is perceived individually and differently by different dogs.  For Snuff, me flipping him over and giving scratches is a great touch, for Kayjin...not so much. 

In the same manner, I think "good touch and bad touch"  is perceived differently according to who is doing the touching!  If their is trust in a relationship, boundaries of personal space seem to narrow.  From what I have read 4ic's dogs seem to trust her, I doubt she has "touched" them in a way that they perceive as "abusive", and I'm sure we all agree that "abuse" comes in many different forms... it does not need to be physical.

After reading this whole thread, believe me it has been a learning experience, and I'm still not sure that everyone is even on the same page as to what an alpha roll is.... I always thought of it the way Mudpuppy describes it, and not the way 4ic does.   4ic's description does not really sound "abusive" to me, it sounds different from what I have or would do, but not"abusive"...just different.

Terms need to be defined and agreed upon before they can be debated....

To sum it up.... I go back to what Silly Sally expressed in the beginning when she said

"I guess I left the whole experience questioning not only why people did it in the first place (as a training method), but why this is so hotly debated, considering Jack does not seem the least bit affected by it one way or the other"

and I really don't think there is any resolution, not here at least....

glenmar

I, as a person, am not comfortable with using force, so I don't use it. 

You may not use physical force (touch), but I find it hard to believe that you (and anyone here) don't force their dogs to abide by the rules of the house, whether it be by physical means (gate or crate) coercion, training or other means. We all impose our wishes on our dogs and "force" them to comply.

glenmar

I don't  believe there is any clear answer to this, or to whether or not dogs are damaged by it.  At least not early on.

Cara and Mia are nearly 6 years old. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed the damage by now. 

Chuffy, you responded while I was writing. You know I won't forget you!  

Chuffy

WHAT IF they tested that?

Whether or not a puppy is pinned will not affect the outcome of a "test" when the dog is full-grown. If a dog "turns" on it's owner, they will either win or lose, regardless whether they were pinned as puppies. And no, the pecking order would not be up for review, because it doesn't rest solely (or even remotely) on physical strength. Far from it. (Cara is the weakest of my dogs and she is alpha) The pecking order relies on everything else I have put in place (just as you and others have) to communicate to them that I am the One. I am in no more danger than you are of my dogs turning on me. I can't believe I'm speculating this! LOL

As regards the physical contest, the reason I do this when they're puppies is to let them know, not have a contest. The outcome is a known. It's to impart the knowledge that from now on, I am the leader (and all that other stuff I said) not because I'm stronger than you, but part of the message is that I am. Right now. It's one small part of an overall picture that I want them to have and that I continue to give them in other ways throughout their lives.

I'm pretty sure that at least 3 of them now know that they ARE in fact stronger than me. But that doesn't discount the message I imparted when they were young. They still carry the information that I am the leader. I don't trick them into thinking that I'll always be stronger than them. I tell them that right now, I am. That sets up an environment and puts into motion a habit and mindset of me being the leader, regardless of strength.

Chuffy

Your dogs seem totally fine to me.  But then, on the surface, as far as we can tell such things over the internet, you seem fine too and you have suffered tremendously. 

I am fine. You don't know the half of my suffering and I am fine! Better than fine, actually. That's another thing about having different philosophies. I believe that there is suffering in life and I welcome it. I'm not making my dogs suffer, though. That's the point I'm trying to get across (and failing, once again, apparently ) But I'm not going to convince anyone of that.

Chuffy

As I have said before, a hundred times over.... Just because you can does not mean you should.

And I fully agree with that. I don't do it "because I can"...  I do it because I think I should.

Benedict

In my rose-coloured view of the world I choose to believe we're all honest about our dogs here, but since we have no proof of what someone is saying, we can't disprove it, either.

Well, then make your assumptions.

Benedict

I'm really unsure about the point of this statement...or accusation.

I have never heard her (or him) talk about her dogs or how well-behaved they are. I put myself and my dogs out there for examination to show that my methods are valid. If someone is so strongly arguing their viewpoint over mine, and so intent on making me out to be a violent abuser of my dogs, I'm curious about their results. And I realized I don't know her dog(s) at all. I know you have Ben, I know Shadow, Sally and Jack, Penny and Sioux and Sequoya, but I don't remember mudpuppies dog... It's not an accusation so much as a curiosity.

Thank you, Chuffy, for responding. 

mudpuppy

I can send you a bag of dog hair for xmas if you'd like.

No, thanks. I've already decided to give it out as presents to my friends and family. LOL

mudpuppy

I realize now that the alpha-rolled dogs had subtle signs of mental damage.

I did not "alpha-roll" my dogs. And if they are mentally damaged (from the same behavior that others do to their dogs for medical procedures or in self-defense), I guess I'm just going to have to live with it now, because I cannot change the past. And I wouldn't if I could. 

Benedict

If a person has the courage of their convictions with regards to what they do, it shouldn't matter how anyone else feels about it. 

I agree. And I'm here and I keep coming back. To be fair, you may not be raking, but it "feels" like some are. That's ok, too, though, because I do have the courage of my convictions.

mudpuppy

the poor puppy was sending serious appeasement signals (please don't kill me) and the owner mis-interpreted it as "affection".  

I did not misinterpret it as affection! I KNOW B'asia was licking my face in submission. You assumed incorrectly. And if she felt I was going to kill her, I doubt she would have immediately fallen asleep in my lap. By the way, ALL of my dogs still lick my chin/mouth in submission. It's part of our relationship.

.:.

Perhaps here again we have a difference of opinion regarding words.  Force to me is not a happy word.  And I have never felt the need to exert my defination of force on my dogs.  Any of them, over the many years I've raised dogs.

 glenmar, can you tell me your definition of "force"?

FourIsCompany

 glenmar, can you tell me your definition of "force"?

I'm curious as well, would it be force to use a prong collar?  I think you mentioned using one on a nother thread glenda.  That seems like force to me, but I'm not really a trainer or have good understanding of training theory.

FourIsCompany

I won't go into detail, but the most recent puppy I had was B'asia. I pinned her one time and in was in my arms in my chair. It was with my arms wrapped around her holding her to me and I was calm and loving toward her. When she stopped struggling, I released the hold and she licked my face and curled up and fell asleep.

I don't consider that an alpha roll, OR a puppy pin, at least going strictly by the description here. Holding a puppy in your arms until they learn to settle down and stop struggling is simply part of handling desensitization, particularly to gentle restraint of the kind they'll have to submit to in a vet exam. I did this with both of my dogs as puppies, not as a response to any behavior on their part, but as a training exercise. I talked to them in a happy voice, fed them treats, or scratched their chests or behind the ears or gently stroked their faces. Ian Dunbar talks about this technique in his After You Get Your Puppy book, which was used in the Sirius Puppy classes we took.

Keefer took to it so well that even now at 82 pounds he'll climb in my lap if I sit on the floor.
 

Cassidys Mom

Keefer took to it so well that even now at 82 pounds he'll climb in my lap if I sit on the floor.

Three of mine will climb in my lap -- in my recliner! Cara only doesn't because of her hips. But DH picks her up because she loves to be held.

Cassidys Mom

Ian Dunbar talks about this technique in his After You Get Your Puppy

Handling and Gentling by Ian Dunbar

Tantrums
Should your pup struggle violently, or especially if he has a tantrum, you must not let go. Otherwise, your puppy will learn that if he struggles or throws a tantrum, he needn't calm down and be handled because the owner gives in. Bad news! With one hand on your pup's collar and the palm of your other hand against the puppy's chest, gently but firmly hold the pup's back against your abdomen. Hold the puppy so that his four legs point away from you and sufficiently low down against your abdomen so that he cannot turn his head and bite your face. Hold the pup until he calms down, which he will eventually do. Continue massaging the pup's ear with the fingers of one hand and his chest with the fingertips of your other hand. As soon as the puppy calms down and stops struggling, praise the pup, and after a few seconds of calm let him go. Then repeat the procedure.

...

Alpha Rollover???
As I mentioned before, your puppy will not trust and respect you if manhandled and forcibly restrained on his back. He will become more resistant. You'll soon have a puppy that doesn't even enjoy being cuddled because he perceives your hugs as forcible restraint. Be gentle and patient as described above.

From now on, I shall call it "gentling" because that's exactly what I do. I never thought I'd say this, but thank you, Mr. Dunbar. And thank you, Cassidy's Mom.

FourIsCompany

Hold the puppy so that his four legs point away from you and sufficiently low down against your abdomen so that he cannot turn his head and bite your face. Hold the pup until he calms down, which he will eventually do. Continue massaging the pup's ear with the fingers of one hand and his chest with the fingertips of your other hand. As soon as the puppy calms down and stops struggling, praise the pup, and after a few seconds of calm let him go. Then repeat the procedure.

I've had to do this with a raging toddler, LOL.  Unfortunately, is still not afraid of me.  

I have already stated that I dislike the term alpha roll, and I think body slamming a dog is either abusive OR that dog needs to be PTS.  

But the anti-"violence" crusade baffles me.  Dogs correct dogs. A puppy who is never ever ever gets any corrections will grow up to be untrainable. There is a threat of force in a dog-on-dog correction. We can say that it is ritualized, and it is, but there is "teeth" behind the posturing.  Puppies learn to behave by being scared of adult dogs' reactions.  Too scared is a bad thing, but so is not scared enough.

Who are we to say what the universal state of scared enough is? I could tell you I don't scare my Sasha. And by the standards of almost everyone here, I don't. But I can give her a look, and she'll do my bidding.  That direct look, with body posture ever so slightly raised, is a ritualistic threat. I've never intentionally physically intimidated her - I'm imitating to the best of my human ability the language Sasha is most fluent in.

NILIF isn't force? Food is essential, animals know this.  I think DPU often brings this up.  I practice NILIF when I feel it is needed, but I don't consider it uncoercive. "You will starve unless you bend to my will." If you are being strict about the N, that is what you are saying. A lady at a pet store once told me to never give my (adult) dog food that she doesn't have to work for, either through obedience or dispensing toys.  I smiled and nodded, but I had no intention of following that sort of protocol for the rest of my dog's life.

My boring old mantra: there is a huge range of dog personalities. One size does not fit all.  I do not believe, for a second, that being pinned as a puppy is UNIVERSALLY damaging. I also do not doubt that it is damaging for some pups.  

Last but not least, 4ic you have more class than I do.  I could not have been as gracious as you were in the face of what was said to you. My hat is off.

FourIsCompany

 
From now on, I shall call it "gentling" because that's exactly what I do. I never thought I'd say this, but thank you, Mr. Dunbar. And thank you, Cassidy's Mom.

It's not what you do but what you call it LOL! Is everyone happy now? 

Dog_ma

My boring old mantra: there is a huge range of dog personalities. One size does not fit all.  I do not believe, for a second, that being pinned as a puppy is UNIVERSALLY damaging. I also do not doubt that it is damaging for some pups.  

Last but not least, 4ic you have more class than I do.  I could not have been as gracious as you were in the face of what was said to you. My hat is off.

Hear Hear!  This is what I was trying to say, you obviously have done a much better job.

.:.