Liesje
Posted : 1/25/2008 3:37:27 PM
FourIsCompany
Liesje, did you get the smaller collar? How is it working?
What are the important points when using a prong collar?
What is the proper fit?
What's a Herm Sprenger collar and why is it different?
Jaia is 80 lb and I would like to get a prong collar for him. Any advice or suggestions from anyone?
Thank you!
Carla, yes, I did get a collar and have used it on Kenya with great success!! I went with the smaller one and bought three extra links, but upon fitting it and using it, I discovered I don't need them and the smaller size ("medium";) is a perfect fit after all. If I use it on Coke, I have to add a link. Phil is going to try it on Coke because the last few days Coke has pulled Phil over. Phil is 270lbs, 6'4" so it's not easy to pull him over, but Coke does it and Phil sprained his ankle. With the winter weather, it has become dangerous b/c if Coke keeps doing this, Phil falls and drops the leash, Coke runs very far very fast. Since it is winter, it is often gray or after dark. We are working on his recall with a trainer, but in the mean time there needs to be a way to get him out on walks. It could be Phil though, because I walk Coke on an Easy Walk and Kenya on a Martingale and I can go three miles with both dogs right at heel on my left.
The Herm Sprenger collar is different than lesser brands because the ends of the prongs are rounded and smooth. I actually bought a Top Paws for Kenya and Coke and it also has rounded prongs. It's hard to explain, but if you find the two different ones you will see the difference. The crappy prongs are simply sawed straight, so the edges are sharp (like if you took a metal pipe and sawed it in half with a hacksaw, the sawed edges are rough). The Top Paws/Sprengers are round and very smooth, they will not cut a dog. Also, I'm bad at unsnapping links to put the collars on/off, so I like the TP/Sprengers because they have a quick release. A prong should never go on/off over a dog's head. My dogs both have too much fur for that to even be possible (once I release the snap, I sort of peel it off).
I did finally find mention somewhere on Leerburg's site that there should ideally be 10 prong links, with 8 being the minimum (I'm pretty sure that's what it said). Most people buy collars that are way too big. they think that because they have a GSD they need a "large" prong. The collar should be fitted so that when it's on, it's up high on the dog's neck, not hanging, and there is no slack in the chain martingale part of the collar. If you Google "Leerburg prong" there is a good article on fitting and it has pictures. After having used it, I agree that it's best to use the smaller size (medium) and purchase extra links. It's easier to fit properly and it's better for the dogs (pressure dispersed over more prongs, so less pressure in a single spot. Too few links really is painful and dangerous). I put our prong on my thigh and popped it and it wasn't really even painful.
To me, the important parts are context, fit, and most importantly, marking and rewarding the desired behavior. I did/do use a prong on Kenya, but I will not use in it any situation where there might be another dog or people close enough to make her uncomfortable. If she resists/pulls in these situations because she is reacting to those things, the prong will self-correct, thus deepening her fear/dislike of certain people and dogs. I'll be honest, I learned this the hard way. I took her for a walk on Christmas Day on a trail in the woods. I assumed no one else would be walking a dog on Christmas in the bitter cold. Wrong! A border collie approached us and did that BC thing where they hang their head and slink forward. This sorta spooked Kenya, so she tried to move away, but since I was only using a 4' lead the prong corrected her and she snarled at the other dog!! I was mortified (at myself) so I immediately removed the prong and went back to the flat. Luckily, we did pass several other dogs with no problems at all, so that one incident did not have a lasting effect. However, just read the intro pages of "Click to Calm" and you will see what can happen when the prong is used incorrectly. When I used it, I would use it on our longer walks, which are familiar to Kenya. If another dog approached, I would change sides of the street (she doesn't care about other animals unless they are within a few feet) or quickly switch to the flat. If strange people were coming to pass, I move onto the grass and have her practice a sit-stay.
Fit I've already addressed and defer to Leerburg/Ed Frawley (note: I'm not condoning Frawley or his training techniques, just saying that his article on fitting prongs is IMO accurate and useful).
Like I said, I have had great success with Kenya and rarely use it now. I agree with our trainer that the prong is a temporary tool and we used it to go from good loose-leash walking to a much more formal heel. It really only took a week or two. Kenya's problem was that in situations where her confidence is not in jeopardy, she will heel nice for maybe 10 steps or so but then gets a little over excited about the work and plows on ahead, not paying attention to me. So for example, if I have to make a left turn and she's a step or two ahead of me, she can't sense the direction change and I knock into her or cut her off. Now I don't to jerk/pop corrections with a prong. I just allow it to self-correct. It lets me take the length of lead I want and define the box where I want Kenya to be. The subtle self-corrections worked to train her to actually focus on me and pay attention to my movement, not just rely on verbal commands or assume that heeling means always marching forward. The proof is that we got our first rally legs and she did the heeling (straight, paces, turns, and weaves) the best of all the exercises, whereas it used to be the most iffy for us. Now that she is more in tune with paying attention, the prong is gone. We went to the pet store last night to practice in a distracting environment and she did really well. When I used the prong, I was consistent with giving her an "eh eh" as she was getting too far ahead or behind, so that marked before the self-correction. Now say I decided to change pace and walk really slow, if she doesn't notice, I say "eh eh" and she immediately stops and adjusts her body to be in line with mine. Of course, both with prong on and off, she is always getting "yes!"es and treats while she is heeling correctly and anytime she holds eye contact while heeling. I strongly believe that unless you are giving as many and probably more yeses/affirmative markers and rewards than prong corrections, the prong will not be a temporary thing b/c it won't teach the dog what you want.
Hope that helps and I don't get flamed! It worked very well for us to be used temporarily to achieve a specific goal and was always used in coordination with positive reinforcement. If I pick up the prong, Kenya runs to me with her eyes lit up and her tail wagging. Prong = very long walk and lots of treats!!