dominance

    • Gold Top Dog

    dominance

    this has probably been discussed before but how can you tell which is the dominant one?I have a nuetered 15 month old male and a 19 month old not fixed female.They both show the same play actions take turns playing with toys ect.I did have a aggression issue that seems to be getting better thanks to the help on forum and from a trainer.I would like to be able to determine who is the boss and train accordingly. Thanks again for everybodys help

    • Gold Top Dog

    Hi bnelson. It depends on what one means by dominant. Do you mean bossy or the alpha position in the pack? It's 2 different things. 

    In my experience, sometimes neither dog will have a great desire to be dominant over the other. Consider yourself fortunate. I had 2 dogs for years and although one seemed to be able to get what she wanted more often, it wasn't a very noticeable thing. They simply didn't care that much. It wasn't until I brought other dogs into the pack that the alpha became obvious to me and I began to recognize traits of dominance (usually NOT displayed by the alpha dog).

    And age, gender and size have nothing to do with which dog is more dominant.

    If it's important to you, if you observe how they interact, you might be able to tell. Does one "stand" over the other, with their head over the shoulders of the other? Does one take treats or toys from the other? (those are both signals of a more dominant dog) Does one lie on their back when the other one approaches or give up the best toys, treats and resting places to the other?  (these are signals of a more submissive dog)

    Does one "hump" the other one? (that usually means "I'd like to be the boss, but I'm not";) If you see some of these signs, you might be able to tell.

    Again, in my experience, it takes observation to tell which one is the more dominant dog.  

    As far as training, if they're acting equal, I would just treat them equally.

    Edited for clarity 

    • Gold Top Dog

    i agree. it isnt always as black and white as you might think...i wouldnt worry about it too much..

    • Gold Top Dog

    the female will all of a sudden lash out at him.Is this a sign?

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have six german shepherds.  Sometimes one will lash out at someone else.  That doesn't really make anyone dominant, that makes someone annoyed or ticked at what another did.  In my pack, I have an alpha male, who never does more than "the look" to get what he wants, and the alpha female......of course she is the ONLY female.....but I don't treat my alphas any differently than I treat the other four and I do nothing different in their training either.

    I guess I'm not clear on what the actual question is?  Or why.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Dominance in a male/female pair will usually be a very dynamic thing, not static.  It is usually environmental-with the female being a bit more dominant in the house, and the male being a bit more dominant outside. These are generalities, there will be specific situations where neither are dominant and neither are submissive as well. 

    Which one initiates play inside?  Outside?  Which one reacts to the other inside?  Outside?  These are usually the more obvious signs of dominance. 
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Xerxes
     Dominance in a male/female pair will usually be a very dynamic thing, not static. 

     

    I have a male/female pair, and have found that to be true too. Sometimes it seems very clear that Dena is dominant - EVERY time when they're playing if someone is on the ground it's Keefer, with Dena standing over him. She's never the one on the bottom. When she jumps into the car first she tries to prevent him from jumping in. If they're both near me and he leaves the room and I call him back, she runs interference. But if it's feeding time, he's the one warning her off getting too close to me around the food, if she uses the dog door to go outside while I'm preparing their dinner he'll try to keep her from coming back in the garage. And when we're at the park he's taken to being stalker dog, letting her get the ball and then laying down in a crouch as she runs back with it, waiting for her to come approach he can jump on her. But both dogs will steal toys from each other. Both dogs will rip bones out of each other's mouths. Both dogs will warn off the other dog if it finishes a bully stick first and starts nosing around the other dog's stick.

    What I do is decide what behavior is acceptable to me, and simply don't allow anything else. If he's being guardy around dinner, I'll lock him in the garage pen and he can watch her eat. When she's done, he gets to eat. I don't want him deciding that he gets first and best access to food. If they're both going crazy in the house, they both get timeouts in their crates. As long as they can share toys without a fight, that's fine by me. And if either of them growls a warning to the other to stay away from their bully stick that's fine with me too. As long as the other dog backs down, that is. If it were to escalate, that would be time for me to step in and put a stop to it. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Usually dogs don't actually get a true "membership" in a group of dogs until they are two years or so old, so your guys are too young to have formed any kind of stable social structure as of yet. Also males and females seem to form two different but intertwined social structures, so if you have a pair you sort of de facto end up with an alpha male and an alpha female. I'm not calling them "dominance heirarchies" because I think dominance per se varies from situation to situation- one dog may always be dominant over another dog in regards to food, yet never be dominant over the same dog in regards to, say, tennis balls.

    • Gold Top Dog

    IMO, it does not matter SQUAT which dog is "boss" over the other.  It is YOUR position in relation to both which is important. 

    Implement NILIF and dish out treats and petting etc based on good behaviour.  Eg. first to sit is first to get a treat.  Dogs are smart enough to recognise that it was behaviour, not rank, that earned the treat.  Hence, no need to work out, define or enforce any hierarchy, therefore no chance of getting that wrong, confusing the situation and creating or exacerbating problems.... and plus you get dogs that "compete" with each other for treats by offering desirable behaviour!!  All round winner I think.

    • Silver

    I am glad to hear that you are seeking the help of a local trainer, as aggression issues are very difficult to define and solve over the internet.  Sometimes by trying to determine who is the dominant dog in a relationship, and then altering our training practices, we can actually mess up the balance in the household further.  For instance, I currently have 4 dogs.  I know that Matilda, the smallest of them, the schnauzer mix, tolerates nothing from no one.  Through fosters and pups she rules with an iron paw.  But, do I cater to her?  No.  I still feed by "who came here first" order, so she gets fed 3rd, no special order of out, etc.  I shudder to think how she would be if I did cater to her, hahahaha!!!  (I would likely have to change her name to Matilla---the Hun!)

    • Gold Top Dog

    If you can't tell which one is alpha, I don't think it matters.  I don't put a lot of thought into dominance, hierarchy, etc.  However, if there is a clear alpha, I don't step in to disrupt that.  IMO, the conflict comes when one dog is challenging the other and they are jockeying for position.  Dogs naturally form hierarchies and don't understand the concept of "equal".  When we took Coke into our home, it was clear Kenya is the alpha and coke immediately conceded to her.  There was no aggression involved.  She gave him a few hard stares, lip curls, and nips on the ear.  Coke will avoid going on the couch and bed even though he sees Kenya on there (and frankly, I don't care if it's unfair b/c Kenya is calm and sits still, while Coke jumps all over and is annoying to have on furniture).  Kenya used a lot of signals to tell Coke exactly how much personal space she needs.  He is more playful and more social, but he's submissive and has never challenged her in anything.  They both play really rough, chasing and tackling each other, but Coke rolls for Kenya all the time, he's never rolled her.  They both try to steal all the toys and whatnot, but neither of them care enough about toys to actually guard them or fight for them.  I got rid of food guarding right away by making them sit next to each other and hand feeding them bits of kibble back and forth.

    Once I saw Kenya was the alpha, it didn't really change how I treat either dog besides me setting Kenya's bowl down first (but it takes her longer to eat).  One thing I made sure of was not to correct Kenya for sometimes showing Coke a little teeth when he was too close.  I don't like to correct those signals b/c then you are removing all of the warnings preceding a bite.  Twice she nipped Coke's ear, and those times she had time-outs in the crate.  Now they are doing really well and I see maybe a hint of a lip curl once every few days if she's in a rotten mood. 

    • Bronze

     Is there always one dog in a group the most dominant? Is it also possible that they are all equal or isn't that possible in the nature of dogs? Just curious!

    • Gold Top Dog

    There is usually a pecking order, but it is not fixed. It can change when a dog is added to the pack or when one leaves, dies or becomes old or ill... it can also change depending on the situation, so one dog may be dominant in the house, but another dog may be dominant out on a walk, one dog may be pushy when it comes to treats or attention and another dog may be more to the fore when it comes to toys.  It is also tricky to define which dogs are TRULY "dominant" and which are simply using dominant behaviours to try to get up the ladder.  In all honesty, it doesn't matter which dog appears to be dominant.  The human's relationship with each one is the important part.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Guess

     Is there always one dog in a group the most dominant? Is it also possible that they are all equal or isn't that possible in the nature of dogs? Just curious!

     

    I don't think they are ever all equal.  It doesn't mean one dog is really dominant though.  In my case, I have a new dog who immediately submitted to the existing dog, even though she has always been shy and submissive herself.  She didn't "dominate" him, he was really the one that decided the pecking order and chose to be the submissive one.  He does things like roll over for her when they are playing (she stays standing or sitting), he won't try to get on the couch or the bed if she is on there, he knows that the first bowl of dog food is hers, etc.  I think that when there is a pecking order, it's the most peaceful.  The dogs probably communicate with subtle glances and gestures that we don't even see.  It's when they are vying for position or another dog is challenging is when we see more dominant behaviors.  I think their nature is hierarchy, that is their equilibrium.  All dogs being equal could mean chaos since any dog would have the ability to challenge for a top spot. 

    • Bronze

    Thanks for your explanation! I have only one dog, so I don't have much experience in dominance.