ideas for establishing boundries where no fence is possible

I'm from Mexico and i know that having a dog outside without a fence, even when you teach him not to cross the property lines is an invitation to have your dog stolen or being hurt by people

I would recommend a fence 100 times more than teaching your dog to respect the property boundaries, it can be done, no doubt about it, and i know how, but for security reasons for you and specially your dog i think is not a good idea

Is there any reasons why you can not put up a fence? 

We have a large yard with no fence and I only use leashes for Kenya when we are walking.  Instead of teaching her the boundary of our yard (which can work, but when you have a working dog bred and trained with intense drive, an invisible line will NOT stop her when she is on a chase and I do not want to squelch her drive), I taught her 1) a solid recall and 2) to want to stay closer to me.  She knows the verbal correction "eh eh" so when she steps over the invisible line I say "EH EH" and she stops and turns back so instinctively she almost trips and falls.  If she's farther from me, I just yell her name and she stops and comes right back.  When she is not chasing something, she knows to stick closer by me and to not run off.  I reinforce this by calling her back often and then releasing her back to go play, so she doesn't always associate the recall with the play time ending. 

I have an invisable fence and two very drivy dogs.  It works wonderfully!!  The fence takes such low, low voltage I think you could use it.  HOWEVER, training is key and so.. important for it to work.  Without training a dog the dog will run through the fence.  You must teach your dog to run INTO yard at the sound of the beeps!  It takes about three weeks to really get them set well on how to maintain the boundries.  My dogs don't even try to near the boundry they stop way.. before.  They were only corrrected twice, each of them and that was all it took.  I woudl advise buying from a company like Canine fence where they install and provide training in there price. 

I don't know Mexico and if there is any chance that strangers or other dogs could come into your property then don't use one!  They do not keep other dogs or bad people out.  I live in a very rual area on 3+ acres of property.  I have all my property fenced.  My house is 300 feet from the road but my fence is set off the road about 200 feet - I don't want them anywhere near the road.  The rest of the property is all theres.

ETA:  I would not use this as containment for when your not home!  Only to be used when you can see and hear what's going on.  We NEVER leave our dogs outside and leave our house.  And when they are outside I check on them all the time - most of the time they are sitting at the door wanting to come back in.

Supervision and long lines.  Doggy day care or a dog walker if you have to up the exercise during the day.  I do not feel my dogs can be adequately protected without fencing if they are not under direct supervision.  What about a kennel run (depending on camaphalge and building codes) indoor out door maybe?

I'm afraid that you are being a bit unrealistic about what any dog is capable of.  Certainly we can teach them to "stay", but if a dog is left indefinitely, most will break the stay, fearing that they have been left, or becoming interested in something in the environment that is just too tempting.  It's a prescription for disaster.  I'd rather you continue to work on obedience for those situations in which you are there to control her movements, but rely on stout fencing for when you are not.  JMHO
 

Actually, our previous Rotweiller/Lab mix learned the boundaries of the property and stayed within them with no problem.  The difference however, is Heidi is far more curious and not as submissive - probably due to her full blooded Rotweiller breed.  We are now back in the states where she does have a fenced yard but fencing is not possible at our Mexico home.  We have the Sea of Cortez in front of our house and a fresh water arroyo next to our house - leaving Federal property between our house and the water - therefore no fences allowed.

I am not afraid of Heidi injuring anyone or any animal and our bay is totally remote (two hours from any town) and the care taker and owner do not allow anyone but the owners or visitors of the owners to enter the property.  There are only 20 homes and only 8 occupied at any one time - so there are not alot of people or other dogs there and we are all like a big family.  We have all known each other for over 15 years and some over 20 years.  Many of the neighbors begged me to let her run free - they loved her.  I just feel it isn't right for the one or two people that might not want a dog around.  We don't want her to think it is OK to wander and I feel she should always be close to us. 

When we go fishing or to town, we put her in the house, close the doors to the outside and leave the doors open to the courtyard where her food, water, big tree and play area is for her.  She can relieve herself there if necessary also. 

 My problem is when we are home and all the French doors are open for air movement as it can be very warm in Baja some months we are there and my husband will not allow screens because of the amount of air they block.  MOST the time she is at my side but sometimes I get distracted and those were the times she would wander off.  We have worked with her alot since I posted and she is doing MUCH better now.  She definitly knows her boundaries and instead of leaving once or twice a day - it is once or twice a week.  Instead of being gone the equivalent of a block she is within calling distance and usually only a few feet or yards out of bounds and comes back immediately when called.  As you suggested - I will definitely continue working with her and have hope that she will do much better next trip down in April, May and June.  For one thing, she will be older and wiser.  So will I.

Where we live in Baja Mexico is very remote - no town for two hours - either direction.  We live off the Hwy 16 miles on a dirt road.  Even the towns are very backwards compared to what you are imagining - no doggy day care or dog walkers.  The Mexicans do NOT treat their dogs like we do - believe me!

There are no building codes to prevent a kennel run but if I wanted to restrict her to a kennel - I could just close her off in our house because it is built around a courtyard with ground and big tree and plenty of play room but the wonderful thing about living in rural Baja is there is plenty of space for her to run and play and be a dog.  She swims and plays in the fresh water arroyo next to our house and LOVES watching the ducks and other water birds come and go.  The weather can be very hot at times - so I like the fact that she can come in the house and find a cool place to nap whenever she wants.  In a kennel - that wouldn't be possible for her and shade alone isn't enough in that heat.

I don't have to protect her from anything or anybody but I don't want her wandering around or becoming a pest.  If she continues to be a problem with her invisible line boundaries - we will create a way to enclose her on our property.  We built a 30 inch rock wall around our front patio this trip and will built a gate for it next trip.  The back yard already has a 5 foot high rock wall but the exterior kitchen opens out to the fresh water arroyo where we can't fence - so we would have to figure out something there.  I have 4 months to work with her before we return - so we will see how she does in April.  We have been building rock walls/fences primarily to protect our house from the flash floods that hurricanes bring our way but we also have to provide escape for the flooding waters which prevents us from putting up fence on all sides.  No fencing can be on Federal land and that is what is in front of us and on the side.  I think your suggestion of supervision is great and I will continue to try to be more attentive.

I would have loved to have a company that installed AND trained the dog too - like you suggested but believe me - they wouldn't be coming to our house in Baja, Mexico.  We are 18 hours South of our home in S. CA and VERY remote.

The invisible fence actually took more juice than we could afford this trip.  We lost a number of our batteries from a hurricane/flood this year - so we were using flashlights and candels at night and  very little power in the daytime as our electric refrigerator was using it all. 

I returned our invisible fence to Petsmart yesterday.  There were actually a number of problems with what seemed like a GREAT idea.

1. people walk on our property all the time and some with their pets as our property goes down to the water - SanSebastian Bay

2. children play between our house and the water because we are the only house that has total shade from a grove of trees

3. Heidi plays in the water many times a day and salt water destroys EVERYTHING quickly.  I don't think her collar equipment would have lasted long for the price we paid.

4. we leave the property frequently during the day with her - go for Rhino rides for a picnic on a nearby beach or hiking in the mountains or to play in the bay or to visit others and it was going to be a hassle taking the collar off and on.

5. the boundaries to our machine would only allow her to the middle of the arroyo and I didn't know HOW I was going to teach her that she could go in the water but not ALL the way across.  She knows she can't get out of the water except by our house.

I agree with you.  We never leave Heidi outside when we leave the house although in the USA she has a doggy door so she can guard the back yard and run and play if she wishes. 

Your suggestions are the best for my situation at this point.  I can't whistle well or consistantly so I bought a whistle yesterday at Petsmart.  Heidi comes immediately IF she can hear me call her name but with the Sea of Cortez in front of our house you hear the splashing of waves the closer you get to the bay so sometimes she couldn't hear me.  (she LOVES to go on the boat and was tempted anytime a neighbor came in on a boat because EVERYONE would run down to the beach to see what they caught).  I had trained her to a sound like the Dog Whisperer uses or to the slap of my hand on my leg - but again, if she couldn't hear me - it was of no use. 

We have a neighbor that has an African Grey parrot that repeats EVERYTHING she hears and my fear was that she was going to start calling my dog for me since it seemed I was CONSTANTLY calling "Heidi, come to mommy"  the first couple weeks we were there.  Cherril and Richard would never forgive me if they had to hear that over and over again.  :)

I have 4 months to train her more before we return to Baja - so I will work on training her to the whistle now.  She really improved alot in the two months we were there and the more time I have with her - the more she sticks by my side.  She is a very loving dog.

We live in a remote area of Baja Mexico where there is a care taker and owner that has the property fenced off and doesn't allow ANYONE in except owners and visitors of owners.  So thank goodness, I don't have to worry about her being stolen or hurt by anyone.  We are a tiny community and more like a big family as we have all know each other for many years.

No fence is possible because the land between us and SanSebastian Bay and the arroyo next to us is Federal property that we can't put anything on.  The owner would not allow fencing either as he is concerned about the appearance of the bay.  He allowed us a rock wall in the front of 30 inches to prevent the next hurricane caused storm from dumping rocks, sand and debri on our porch and thruout our house but we have to leave the sides open for the water to drain off the property or it would get trapped.  Without pictures of the property it is hard to explain why we can't fence the house itself off - but trust me, it is not possible.  We are built up, off the ground 3-4 foot.  There are pictures during construction of our Baja house on my website www.grandmarene.smugmug.com 

You are right, a fence would be the simple solution.

I agree that, given your limitations with regard to fencing, the best solution is to teach an absolutely solid recall, and to never leave the dog outdoors unattended by a human to whom she will respond by coming immediately when called.  Training to the whistle is relatively easy - just don't use it to call her yet!!!  Instead, simply whistle and hand her some roast beef or other real meat treat that she never gets any other time.  Repeat that a about a gazillion times until you notice that she really understands that the whistle ALWAYS predicts that she is getting the very special treat.  (For some dogs, this isn't food - it could be a tennis ball or a frisbee if that's what their very favorite thing is, but food is usually the thing most dogs will work for.)  Once you are comfortable that she understands, try whistling while you are in another room.  She should come running.  Make sure she gets a great big jackpot - many tiny pieces of the special treat, or several tosses of the frisbee.  Gradually try it in more distracting circumstances until you are sure she will respond everywhere.  If you want more information on how I usually train a normal recall, get Leslie Nelson's DVD, "Really Reliable Recall".  www.cleanrun.com should have it.

How about buying a generator?  no, seriously, even if you had a working invisible fence system and had trained the dog to it properly, I wouldn't leave a dog unattended outside confined only by such a system, it's just not that safe; even if the dog doesn't leave the yard, it doesn't keep others out.  It sounds like your motivation for wanting the dog to be loose is to give the dog more exercise. Well, I have yet to see a dog engage in "self exercise" when left loose alone, even in a very large yard. They just don't, unless there is something to chase or someone to play with.

grandmarene

5. the boundaries to our machine would only allow her to the middle of the arroyo and I didn't know HOW I was going to teach her that she could go in the water but not ALL the way across.  She knows she can't get out of the water except by our house.

There is a way, you dont need any kind of fence, collar or tool, just you and your dog but you will need a lot and i mean A LOT of repetitions and it will take you a while before you can trust your dog to be by himself unsupervised with out running away  (still i dont think is a good idea to leave a  dog unsupervised if you dont have a fence) 

spiritdogs

I agree that, given your limitations with regard to fencing, the best solution is to teach an absolutely solid recall, and to never leave the dog outdoors unattended by a human to whom she will respond by coming immediately when called.  Training to the whistle is relatively easy - just don't use it to call her yet!!!  Instead, simply whistle and hand her some roast beef or other real meat treat that she never gets any other time.  Repeat that a about a gazillion times until you notice that she really understands that the whistle ALWAYS predicts that she is getting the very special treat.  (For some dogs, this isn't food - it could be a tennis ball or a frisbee if that's what their very favorite thing is, but food is usually the thing most dogs will work for.)  Once you are comfortable that she understands, try whistling while you are in another room.  She should come running.  Make sure she gets a great big jackpot - many tiny pieces of the special treat, or several tosses of the frisbee.  Gradually try it in more distracting circumstances until you are sure she will respond everywhere.  If you want more information on how I usually train a normal recall, get Leslie Nelson's DVD, "Really Reliable Recall".  www.cleanrun.com should have it.

Never blow a whistle up a gun dogs bum!  In other words, don't blow it when the dog is moving away from you and it applies to all types, not just gun dogs.  Establish and maintain an unbroken record with the whistle.... ie, dog comes first time every time.  And remember its up to YOU to do that by setting the dog up for success.