Great videos on behavior by Dunbar, Donaldson and others

espencer

I also think that one of the trainer's mistakes is to talk to the dog on a high pitch at the moment the other dogs coming, that only add excitement to the situation, giving more chances to the dog to re act the way we actually want to avoid

I agree with this. I know energy is not what is being examined here, but she seems to be on an energy roller coaster and it seems a bit out of integrity for me. One moment she's saying "eh-eh" in a very stern voice and the very next instant, she's over-exuberant with a high energy "Good boy"!!! I'd really have to see the whole sequence (as someone mentioned, these are clips and not the entire session) to 'get' how the dog is reacting. I would think he'd be pretty confused.

I don't think she's abusing the dog, I just really disagree with her technique.  

One more thing. I'm not concerned so much about the dog's emotional response. I'm afraid she's going to wrench his neck.

To my knowledge, Jean Donaldson has never wrenched a dog's neck, and I'm surprised that this is your form of attacking her - apparently you don't remember the jindo episode where CM has a dog completely upright gasping for air.  Oh, but then you would say that the dog was a red zone dog and he had to do that...  Jean gets no such amnesty, regardless of the fact that the dog in question could easily have pulled her over, is a shelter dog, not a pet (critical to get the behavior under control or maybe the dog ends up in a dead bin, not a living room).  You can frame this any way you want, but what I saw in that video was a technique that I would use if I had a similar situation.  It is not what I would use if I had time to work with a pet owner who was committed to rehabbing her dog, took instruction well, and was not in a rush.  Circumstances, to an extent, govern what we do as trainers.   My guiding principle is least invasive, minimally aversive.  I don't really think that Jean's principles are anything other than that either.  This is not a dog that was jerked - pulling up on the GL simply closes the dog's mouth so that it cannot bite (Remember we are dealing here with a shelter dog - Liesje didn't expect what happened to her while walking one her shelter's dogs either.   Had the dog been in a GL, perhaps the situation could have been controlled better.)  You can argue the merits of the GL pro or con, but suggesting that this dog was in any danger whatsoever is inaccurate.  Not my favorite technique, just something in the bottom of the toolbox, but certainly not even close to what I've seen CM do to dogs on national television.  Granted, latest season he seems to be getting better, but there are times I still watch and know that he isn't getting the whole picture.  No one is immune from that - but if every time you guys see something from a positive trainer, and you rush to judgment, you are not seeing the whole picture either.  At least I took the time to read CM's book (yes, I will read the second one, provided I can get it at the library), and I've watched the shows and the youtubes, with the same critical eye that I view ANY trainer or behaviorist's work.  Heck, I don't always agree with Dunbar, Clothier, Hetts, etc.  But, I discuss each situation on its own merits.  This is how I see this one.  I just hope that people will, as I'm sure tashakota intended, just go see the videos for yourselves and make up your own minds, free of anyone else's opinions, including mine.   That site will have a wealth of excellent information - it may also have a few "duds".  But, at least the people who are participating are experienced, educated, and well intentioned with regard to dogs' safety and behavioral health.

would a "fence dog" be considered to be a pet or a shelter dog? in a dogs world, is there much difference, when any dog is simply driven by proximal circumstance?

espencer

I also think that one of the trainer's mistakes is to talk to the dog on a high pitch at the moment the other dogs coming, that only add excitement to the situation, giving more chances to the dog to re act the way we actually want to avoid

Which is why my method is to not allow bad scenes to happen, just willy-nilly. It will even determine where we walk. It sounds as if Jean is working in the high energy scenario as others do in order to rehab the behavior.

Sometimes, we cannot avoid a high stress incident. And I still take advantage of those by waiting to reward calm behavior in the presence of stress, such as not doing anything when another dog charges. And I see that as me being a leader. But if I had another dog who couldn't respond to the way I train, I might be using a special collar, whichever one helped the dog behaviorally, regardless if it was a GL, prong, Illusion, Easy Walk. OTOH, my aims may be different, too. I have a dog bred to pull. At some point in time, I want to engage in that activity, even if its just on rollerskates or a bicycle. So, I use equipment that allows him to pull without causing harm.

I just watched the Conditional Response video in which she desensitized her dog to the Gentle Leader and I think it's perfect. I wish everyone would watch that when attempting to get their dog used to any new piece of equipment such as a GL, Halti or a muzzle.

I also watched the "Helping a First Time Owner be Successful" and it was very good. She stressed NO tension up on the GL and to "hang it loose". And I really like the energy of the trainer (Pia Silvani) MUCH better than Joan Donaldson. I just really did not like her or her handling. It's not an attack. It's a statement of preference.

One thing I don't like about the GL as opposed to the Halti is that it does not connect to the collar.  If the dog worms out of the GL or it comes unhooked or the clasp breaks, the dog is loose. A Halti has an additional strap that connects to the collar, so if the Halti fails, the dog is still leashed. Just a point to remember if you buy the Halti brand. I have them both, but I added an additional strap to the GLs.

BTW, is this series meant to be an advertisement for the Gentle Leader and Premier or does it just seem like that to me?  I wonder if ABRI got paid to do these videos for them.

It's got to be Premier. If you scroll down there are a couple videos featuring the Easy Walk Harness (which I watched because I just got a SENSE-ible harness which operates on the same principle), which is also made by Premier.  

FourIsCompany

I don't think she's abusing the dog, I just really disagree with her technique.  

One more thing. I'm not concerned so much about the dog's emotional response. I'm afraid she's going to wrench his neck.

I agree with that....there is a fair amount of yanking involved, and in some instances the dog is mid jump and she yanks.....I can't see how a leash pop is less humane....compared to this yanking and twisting a dog's neck in mid launch......

snownose

FourIsCompany

I don't think she's abusing the dog, I just really disagree with her technique.  

One more thing. I'm not concerned so much about the dog's emotional response. I'm afraid she's going to wrench his neck.

 

 

I agree with that....there is a fair amount of yanking involved, and in some instances the dog is mid jump and she yanks.....I can't see how a leash pop is inhumane....compared to this yanking and twisting a dog's neck in mid launch......

 I agree about the high-pitched voice, which I use when praising also. But it can lead to more excitement depending on what you are working on. Teaching a dog to sit and responding with a "happy excited" voice works but using that same happy excited voice when dealing with leash aggression might cause more excitement than you want in that situation.

 I do love Mr Dunbar. I have never heard him speak and have only read his books. I could listen to him talk forever. I also love his dog that he talks about in one of the videos.

 The video with Jean and the chow where she introduces the GL is great. I agree with Four that everyone should take the time to introduce new equipment in such a positive way.

Donna, I understand what you are saying....and normally I wouldn't say a whole lot, but to watch those videos and always having to defend a leash pop is something ,alright......

I do like how she introduces the GL, even though I am not in favor of that walking tool.....she takes her time in getting the dog conditioned for it.....as one can tell this takes hours....I feel taking hours to teach a dog to walk on a leash properly has the same result.....taking the time to teach a dog anything is very important...and that she does......she gets two thumbs up for that....

dgriego

If I compare her to others (considered to be on a less positive side) I do not see that much difference.

I agree. That's why I'm a little surprised at the support she gets for this. My ONLY issue is that I don't like the GL to be used as a correction device any more than I like a choker collar (chain). Either one, used incorrectly can cause damage to the dog. And in my opinion, the GL is not being used correctly and safely in these leash aggression videos by Joan. I'd much rather see a pinch collar on these dogs. The dogs are a bit unpredictable in their actions and I don't trust ANYONE to do what she's doing there.

And I fully own that it's my opinion and I'm the one who is uncomfortable.

I understand what both of you are saying (Four and espencer) and I agree that upon watching them I am somewhat "putout" by how much time and effort I have had to expend in defending a "poke" and a "leash pop" .

 Four I do agree with you on the GL although I have to add the disclaimer and admit I have never used one. But taking Hektor as an example I think he would respond better to a correction (whether applied by me or him) with a prong than he would to a GL and having him hit the end of his leash with full power wearing a GL would concern me as he would give himself a serious case of whiplash.

 I do see where the difference might be in in appropriate usage of either tool. I see where trainers have concerns about chokes and prongs in th wrong hands and not uses properly (and most likely the majority do not use them properly). I myself have seen people pull the prong up way high and then yank the dog with all of their might (most were men) which is over kill IMO unless said dog is in the process of killing someone or something and you have no other choice. I have also seem many a choke chain tightend to the max on the dog as the dog pulls the owner like mad stopping on occasion to hack and cough. This is not effective and can damage the dog.

 In the long run I think it proves my (edited to add and others) point which has always been it is not the tool but it is how the tool is used and in what context it is used that makes the difference.

spiritdogs

apparently you don't remember the jindo episode where CM has a dog completely upright gasping for air.

In that one CM just holds the leash and keep his arms straight to avoid being bitten, the dog goes up and down by himself since wants the leash off him, CM just lets him get tired with all that jumping, after jumping 4 or 5 times and act like a fish of course the dog is gasping for air, in the Donaldson one she even bends her arms to keep the pressure on, making the dog having his legs "flying" in the air even when he wants to get down on the floor already

spiritdogs

You can frame this any way you want, but what I saw in that video was a technique that I would use if I had a similar situation.

spiritdogs

suggesting that this dog was in any danger whatsoever is inaccurate.  Not my favorite technique, just something in the bottom of the toolbox

Those statements actually sound like those ones that have being said while trying to explain CM techniques  

spiritdogs

just go see the videos for yourselves and make up your own minds, free of anyone else's opinions

But then where the debate would be? 

espencer

Around 2:05 and further, according to her explanation she HAS to apply pressure, you can see in the video how at that moment her arms are bending to keep applying the pressure on the GL, if she was not hanging the dog she would be having her arms straight, hands below the dog's mouth level, leash totally relaxed, and the dog would be going up and down by himself, but that would not put enough pressure on the GL which is actually the point of the exercise, you can see the dog wants to have his front paws back on the ground but he hesitates  because the trainer keeps pulling since he is not sitting yet

Yes she does have to apply pressure, she makes no bones about that.  But she is not keeping the dog suspended.  She is closing the nose loop around the dogs muzzle, but she is not lifting the dog in the air by it, or keeping her suspended by the nose.  As the dog wants to lower to thr ground, she allows that.  At that point she is actually being very gentle, in my view.  However I agree with Four that you do see her yanking on the GL - I don't like that AT ALL.

espencer

I also think that one of the trainer's mistakes is to talk to the dog on a high pitch at the moment the other dogs coming, that only add excitement to the situation, giving more chances to the dog to re act the way we actually want to avoid

She speaks in a high pitched voice to the dog to PRAISE it.  I see a calm and better behaved dog at the end of the exercise.  Our collie X sometimes mistakes "good" for "all done now" but I'm sure as mustard not going to stop praising her and letting her know when shes getting it right.

Chuffy

She is closing the nose loop around the dogs muzzle, but she is not lifting the dog in the air by it, or keeping her suspended by the nose

The dog goes up, she needs to keep applying pressure on the GL, the dog goes down, she needs to feel the dog going down to lower her hands without stop applying pressure because the dog has not sit down (which is the goal), that calculation is what is making her having the mistake, she does not know if the dog is going down, still will flip out a little more, take a sit, etc She does not know what the dog is going to do next so that makes her having the dog in the air for a split second while she is trying to realize what the dog is doing

Regardless if the dog was hanging in the air for half of a second or not the fact of that she is using 7 seconds of force makes me think that a simple leash correction will be better and will be less force applied 

Chuffy

She speaks in a high pitched voice to the dog to PRAISE it.

I know the point of it, she can still praise with affection or even with the same words WITHOUT the high pitch, is not why she does it but how, thats what is not helping the dog to be relaxed