Great videos on behavior by Dunbar, Donaldson and others

Mmm on "Tips for Handling a Dog-Reactive Dog" she is hanging the dog from the leash, she applies pressure to the leash and she does not let go UNTIL the dog sits, for me that takes longer than a regular leash correction (7 seconds of pressure with this negative reinforcement against half of a second of the negative reinforcement from a regular leash correction)

I think the technique in this video uses way more force than the force used on a regular leash correction

Well, a leash correction is positive punishment, and the technique she's using here is negative reinforcement, so they are differnet techniques, not just the same technique using different tools. The point of negative reinforcement is to apply the aversive until the dog performs the required behavior and then the aversive goes away, which is different from a collar correction. A prong collar used as a self-correcting device (as opposed to someone applying pops to it) is more along the lines of a negative reinforcement--it pinches until the dog lets some slack into the leash, then it stops.

Having said that, I'm not real hot on what she's doing there. I don't really like head collars, though I like them a bit more when they are in the hands of someone highly trained. And I like that in the video she's not dancing around the aversive nature of the head collar. It's uncomfortable, it tightens up until the dog quits freaking out, then it goes back to being just kind of there. Did she say "painless" though? I'm not sure I'd say that. If the sensation causes the dog to rethink their current strategy through causing discomfort, I'd say there's probably some amount of pain involved.

EDIT: This site seems to be primarily an advertisement for the Gentle Leader. I'm not a fan, though I do think they can be appropriate in some situations. I'm watching one right now where a dog is being trained out of freight-train pulling behavior with a head collar and I don't have such a problem with what is going on in that one.  The dog is not reactive or lunging or anything like that--just never was taught to not pull and now has this ingrained pulling thing going on. Incidentally, the dog begins the session on a flexi-lead as the leash her owners were using. Of course with a head collar, no flexis allowed and I wonder how much that had an impact on the change in her behavior.

houndlove

Well, a leash correction is positive punishment, and the technique she's using here is negative reinforcement,

I'm just guessing, but I'm going to say it probably doesn't matter to the dog what it's called.

houndlove

Having said that, I'm not real hot on what she's doing there.

I'm not either. I was very uncomfortable watching her handle the dogs with the "gentle" leaders. I would never do that. I would recommend this video to show someone how NOT to use a gentle leader.

FourIsCompany

houndlove

Well, a leash correction is positive punishment, and the technique she's using here is negative reinforcement,

I'm just guessing, but I'm going to say it probably doesn't matter to the dog what it's called.

No, I'm sure it doesn't. I was just pointing out that the goal of the technique for the handler is a different goal, hence a different technique. 

I don't have the required player to see the video. Do current sites have a religious thing against wmv and avi?

By the way, I think it's excellent that we can also talk about what we think is wrong with some of the other dog professionals of the world. Fair is fair.

I'm thinking of Dgriego and her Dogo that locks on to something so thoroughly that no previously +R established training will work, leaving her to use her corrections which, as she pointed out, are different than touch cues for watch me. I don't have enough experience with Dogos of that nature and if she must do those things, then so be it. In the same breath, in the video, Donaldson may have thought it necessary to do what she did, though I haven't seen it, so my commentary is just speculation.

The long and short of it as that there may be a limit to the effectiveness of one trainer or their particular take on a style. And if that can be said for Donaldson, or even +R in general, can it also be said for proponents of physical correction styles. Again, fair is fair. And healthy criticism is just that, healthy. And so is seeing what may be right in a method.

Spencer does raise a good point. What is more humane? Having a dog fight and hurt itself on a piece of equipment or administering a quick correction, provided the dog knows what it means, that is but a moment of time and a physical cue?

In my opinion, any piece of equipment should be approached in a rewarding manner, given enough time.

Does the dog in the video seemed to be enjoying himself less than say a dog in a prong collar (properly adjusted) that merely feels pressure and corrects himself, at least until leash manners can be established? And before I truly criticize any piece of equipment I remind myself that the owner is being responsible as best as they can and that's way better than the people who can't hold onto a Scottie puppy on a flexi.

espencer

she is hanging the dog from the leash

Where are you looking?  What sort of time frame?  The closest I can see to what you are describing is where the dog lifts her front legs up, but she does not look "hung" there.  There seems to be very little tension in the lead. 

I don't think this is likely to be painful... at least, not physically.  Psycologically?  Hmm.  If you close your hand gently round a dogs muzzle, you can be sure you dont hurt him but you can be equally sure he does NOT like it.  In the same way, the dog clearly does NOT like that danged thing round her nose.  At least Donaldson is upfront about it and why it works.... although I can see how this is different from a "leash correction", the two techniques have something in common - bl**dy hard to pull off for nearly everyone!  I don't think I would choose to use this technique, but it was good to watch.

Edit to add - what do you think of the body language.... do you see a dog that is more relaxed, still willing to interact?  Pricked ears, tail wagging, no hesitation about greeting the other dog, generally calmer...?

houndlove

No, I'm sure it doesn't. I was just pointing out that the goal of the technique for the handler is a different goal, hence a different technique. 

Chuffy

what do you think of the body language.... do you see a dog that is more relaxed, still willing to interact?  Pricked ears, tail wagging, no hesitation about greeting the other dog, generally calmer...?

Yes. 

ron2

What is more humane? Having a dog fight and hurt itself on a piece of equipment

The dog didnt fight this piece of equipment... at least I didnt see any fighting.  The dog was still looking at the other dog and was very interested.  Certainly not fighting to get away from the trainer.... she is stood very close to her, she is up on her back legs for some of it but there does not appear to be much tension in the lead.  I don't think you COULD use this equipment on a dog that lunged, fought hard, was hung up and suspended by the nose.... you'd hurt and injure the dog, no question.  There is quite a lot of delicacy in how it is used.  I have a fair bit of admiration for the skill there, but not for the technique itself... in particular because it doesnt show you a "real time frame" and I highly doubt the whole thing was 3:17 from start to finish.  Its not made clear there whether thats minutes of work, or hours.  Bah!  Who edits these things??

 I really think that people should view a range of videos before making a determination whose techniques they like and don't like.  What I do appreciate is that we finally have some videos that are worth viewing to get a perspective on some different techniques.  I'm planning to watch them all.  After all, if I want to buy videos, they range from $29 - hundreds, so why not have a look-see.

In the "On-Leash Aggression" video, she actually yanks the dog with the "gentle leader"  at 2:28. I can't abide by that and I'm also very uncomfortable with the way she handles the dogs in general. She's seems very rough. I'm really kind of surprised.

I use the gentle leader, but not like she does... When I use it, it's "gentle".   I'm not saying she's full of it or anything, I'm just really not comfortable with her handling of dogs so far as I've seen.

Good point. I wish I could see the video but someone said the dog was nearly hanging from the equipment and I was giving the benefit of the doubt that they might right.

My bad. I guess I'll wait until I can see it. It's difficult to analyze from someone else's description.

I do know that the +R method of using a Gentle Leader is to acclimate the dog to it, as you would with any equipment. Even a prong collar or muzzle. I've seen dogs wearing GLs. Sometimes, they go a step to far and the halter turns them around but it's not a violent thing, just a physical constraint.

  I watched some of the ones being discussed and I did bookmark the page as I would like to listen to some of Dunbar's lectures. I like and respect Jean as a trainer, she has worked with a lot of dogs. She is not a favorite of mine, but also not someone I dislike.

 I have to confess that I do not like the gentle leader myself (I have never used it) and I think that she handles the dog well (I did not see anything wrong with how she did it) but I cannot see any real difference in how she handles the dog versus some more controversial trainers. The equipment is different.

 She is using a lot of treats and praise (which I do) but she is also giving corrections, (which I do). A correction is a correction whether a leash pop or whether the dog is applying it to himself and the only difference is with intensity. Some may give a hard yank (which I do not unless someone or something is in danger of being eaten and I must) and some a milder one. The more you can work toward having the dog correct himself the better (IMO) but it is still a correction and I have seen no adverse problems from administering them myself versus the dog doing it to himself. The dog knows that we are connected by the leash and I think therefore they atribute any pressure to us whether it is us or them causing it.

 I liked the three that I watched (chow with GL, and Leash Reactive and Aggressive reactive Leash) and I guess my reaction is we are not that different. It actually puzzles me seeing the videos and comparing it to other videos of other trainers, on where the actual controversy lies.

 Also Mr Dunbar had a great point about turning the dog away from another dog (using the gl) and applied it to how the top dog woulld behave in the presence of a lesser dog behaving rudely. He stated that the top dog would walk away and show the other his butt. Although he did not use the word dominant nor did he speak of wolves he is speaking about social status.

 Anyway thanks for posting them, I will watch more later.

Chuffy

Where are you looking?  What sort of time frame?  The closest I can see to what you are describing is where the dog lifts her front legs up, but she does not look "hung" there.  There seems to be very little tension in the lead.

Around 2:05 and further, according to her explanation she HAS to apply pressure, you can see in the video how at that moment her arms are bending to keep applying the pressure on the GL, if she was not hanging the dog she would be having her arms straight, hands below the dog's mouth level, leash totally relaxed, and the dog would be going up and down by himself, but that would not put enough pressure on the GL which is actually the point of the exercise, you can see the dog wants to have his front paws back on the ground but he hesitates  because the trainer keeps pulling since he is not sitting yet

I also think that one of the trainer's mistakes is to talk to the dog on a high pitch at the moment the other dogs coming, that only add excitement to the situation, giving more chances to the dog to re act the way we actually want to avoid