"Hugging"

    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't think that's it, because she does this outside too.  I allow the dogs to take their toys in and out, and they have plenty of places to bury them outside and never do, so I really don't think that's the issue.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I wanted to post an update.  We've been trying to keep Maggie from "hugging", telling her "off" each time she tries, giving her the "sit" command and rewarding her each time she sits (which she does immediately on command).  She's still trying to hug.  I have seen no improvement at all.  I've tried to replace it with other bahaviors, as suggested by some posters, but while she's learning the new behaviors her hugging has not stopped or even lessened.  She does not act anxious or afraid in any way, so I just don't think that's the problem.  Have I just not given her enough time?  
    • Gold Top Dog
    ETA: Maybe she gets the routine - she hugs, you say off, she gets attention.... even though you are saying "off", it is still attention and it gets you focused on her. I think instead of giving a command and attention when she hugs, you should try complete ignoring.
     
    So everytime she hugs, you immediately stand up and walk away for 10 seconds. Then continue to give affection and treats when she sits nicely.

    Work on only giving affection in exchange for something. A sit, a down, a pawshake, a roll-over, etc. Like NILF (Nothing In Life is Free) - affection is initiated by you in exchange for something. Affection is not given on demand when the dog wants.

    That's my opinion, hopefully it helps!
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog
    Maybe she gets the routine - she hugs, you say off, she gets attention.... even though you are saying "off", it is still attention and it gets you focused on her. I think instead of giving a command and attention when she hugs, you should try complete ignoring.


    I agree.  Anne (spiritdogs) was right - you needed to ignore the behavior.  Hopefully she will be along with more advice on how to undo the dance that has been created.  (1,2,3,4...Hug-off-sit-reward.)  She's still "rewarded" or gets gratification out of her hug behavior.
    If action is a must (versus ignoring) I would imagine she gives some body cue that she's about to hug you and that is the instant you implement a different command.  Before it becomes a hug.  Like teaching a puppy Off before their feet actually make contact w/you.  Again, Anne should have good advice for you.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Katran

    Thanks for the tip and especially for the website.  While I don't mind her hugging me, I know that not all my guests are too keen for a dog (especially one who loves to roll around in her pool, then in the dirt) to be all over them.


    Once she does develop some confidence, then you could put it on cue.  But, a dog that is just recently adopted does better if the rules are the rules from square one.  So, you become a predictable, non-scary, solid force in her life. [:)]
    Clicker training (and even some elementary agility training, if she's up for it) are great ways to build a dog's confidence.
    I'm at work & going off to lunch - I'll try to get on again later.
    • Gold Top Dog
    It's not as if she never gets attention otherwise.  Between my husband, my three kids and I, she gets attention pretty frequently.  I just find it hard to believe that she's that desperate for attention.  I'm a SAHM, so she's almost never alone.  She doesn't follow us around the house begging for attention.  But every time you try to interact with her, one of the things she wants to do is hug.  Even when we play with her, we'll throw a toy, she'll bring it back, drop it at your feet and try to hug you.  Not every time, but often.  It just doesn't seem to matter what we are doing with her, she wants to hug.  It doesn't seem to be worse or better at any particular time (i.e., when she hasn't seen us all day if we've been gone), so I can't pin it on any specific cause.

    Ignoring it is really not an option.  Her head comes to my chin when she stands up on her hind legs.  She wraps her front legs around my chest, which pretty much imobilizes me and puts me off-balance.  I push her off, say "off", and walk away.  If that isn't a deterant, I don't see how me standing there and letting her hang on me would be.  If I'm trying to do something specific with her, like put her leash on for a walk, I will push her off with the "off" command, tell her to sit which she immediately does, then praise her for sitting.  But if I don't need to interact with her for a specific reason at that moment, I push her off with the off command and walk away.  She never tries to hug anyone from behind, so that's not a problem.  But just standing there and trying to ignore it is really not feasible, especially not for my kids, as the youngest one is actually shorter than Maggie when she stands on her hind legs (Maggie, not my daughter, lol).

    I have tried to catch her before she hugs.  Usually as soon as I go up to her I tell her to sit, which she does right away and I reward her, but the minute I stop petting her she's up on her hind legs, before I even have the chance to turn around.  It's almost as if she just thinks this is the normal way she is supposed to interact with someone.  She has done this since the day we got her.  She did it with the workers at the Humane Society, and she tries to do it with everyone she sees.   She never whines or whimpers when she does it, so it doesn't seem to be a "Pet me!  Pet me!" issue.  Like I said, she's almost never alone and we give her lots of affection.  She also has our other dogs, one of which in particular she gets along very well with. 

    I'm beginning to wonder if her previous owner(s) actually trained her to do this, because it just seems to be so ingrained into her.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Katran

    We are also showering her with as much affection as possible, since she seems to crave it so much. 


     
    I think this is the wrong approach - she does sound like a clingy dog and the best thing you can do for her is to give her confidence and teach her to stand on her own four paws a bit more.  I have a feeling that if you do this the amount she tries to "hug" you will lessen.
     
    ORIGINAL: Katran

    Ignoring it is really not an option.  Her head comes to my chin when she stands up on her hind legs.  She wraps her front legs around my chest, which pretty much imobilizes me and puts me off-balance.  

     
    IMO this is one insecure dog.  This sounds to be a controlling issue on her part.  So much has changed in her life and there is so much she is still uncertain of, and so she is manipulating you and controlling you in this way - it makes her feel better.  It has become worse because each time she has done it, she has been "rewarded" with some form of attention.  That's just my analysis.  SO: You need to a) Make her feel secure enough that she doesn't need to do this, as well as show her you WON'T be controlled and b) stop rewarding her in any way shape or form for this bhvr.
     
    My suggestions are -
     
    1.  You MUST ignore this behaviour.  Don't speak to her or look at her when she does it.  Don't make eye contact - keep your head UP.  As she moves to "hug" you, turn away.  If she is persistent then walk away, or even leave the room and close the door. 
    2.  Employ NILIF - this means she has to work for everything good in life and it all happens on your terms.  Nudging you or bringing you toys for attention, as well as "hugging" or any sort of jumping up, as well as "cute" behaviours that you haven't asked for (like sitting and looking at you adorably) must be met with "No Attention".  (see 1)  It's fine to CALL her for attention as often as you like, but ensure you do this at key times to reinforce calm and confident behaviour rather than hyper/nervous/clingy behaviour.
    3.  As spiritdogs said, she will gain immense confidence if you are sending clear and consistant "leader" signals to her.  NILIF is one way to do this, grooming is another way.  Your attitude is most important - calm, calm, calm calm.  Head up, walk tall, expect obedience, speak quietly but firmly.  Try not to mollycoddle her - let her build up some confidence on her own. 
    4.  What is her routine - is it fairly stable?  Do meals/walks/grooming happen at a set time of day?  A routine will give her reassurance and confidence and reduce her need to "control" you by hugging.
    5.  Does she have a crate?  If not would you consider one?  A crate is somewhere to go anytime they feel nervous, lonely, scared or tired.  Somewhere that is their and theirs alone, a den, a safe haven.  They need to be trained to use it properly - you need to teach them to love being in there and feel secure, safe and happy in there.  Crates can be used at all sorts of times - if guests come round for instance, it's somewhere for the dog to settle with a chew until the initial excitement of their arrival has dissipated.  They can be used in the car or when taking the dog on holiday.  But the thing I like best about a crate is that it gives the dog a "coping strategy" any time they don't feel so secure - in short I think that used properly they help to boost a dogs' confidence. 
     
    That's just what I think.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sorry I'm so late in replying.  I did read your response awhile back, I just never got a chance to respond before a lot of things happened.  In addition to the holidays, we lost a family friend to cancer right before Christmas, then this past week we lost one of our old cats, and just a couple of days ago another of our cats got out and was hit by a car.  So it's been a bad couple of weeks.

    First off, to answer your questions:  she does have a pretty stable routine.  For my own sake I have to try and do things around the same time each day or I can easily get off routine, so most of the time her day-to-day routine is the same.

    She is not in a crate, but she and our other big dog sleep in our hallway, which has a door at both ends so we can (and do) close it off.  This is where she goes to sleep, it's where the food bowls are, and it's where she goes if I feel she needs time to herself.  When I tell her and our other big dog to "go lay down", they go straight to the hallway.

    Any interaction at all with her prompts the hugging behavior.  On the advice of several posters, I have tried ignoring her altogether as soon as she tries to hug, but this seems to have made it worse.  She now seems absolutely desperate for attention, and even when I'm just walking by or across the same room she comes up to me and instantly tries to hug me.  She's now doing it even when I turn away from her, which she was not doing before.  Today I was carrying a laundry basket full of clothes and she nearly knocked me down trying to hug me.  I hadn't even acknowledged her up to that point.  Before she would only hug when I or someone else went up to her and instigated some type of attention.  Now she seems to be doing it whether we pay her attention or not.

    So it's worse than before.  What can I do about this?  Ignoring it is definitely NOT helping.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Imagine if someone gave you a fiver every time you clapped.  Any time you wanted some cash, you'd clap.  Now imagine it stopped all of a sudden.... You wouldn't twig straight away that this was no longer a viable strategy and you'd try again, thinking, "What the hey, it worked before????"  You'd clap and clap and clap and clap, harder and louder and more often and wonder why you weren't getting anywhere, thinking "Give me the money dammit!  Argh!  Just give me the money!"  And then, eventually, you'd give up.
     
    Now imagine the clapping is her hugging and the money is your attention.  See what's happening?  Usually, when the behaviour seems most frantic, it's about to expire.  Unfortunately, that's the point most people buckle and decide it's not working and give in.  This teaches the dog, "Pheweee!  It still works.  I just got to try harder and be really persistent, but it will work eventually."  So if someone has tried this tactic before, she will be extremely persistent and it will take longer for the tactic to work and for her to give up.  If you give in now, you will reinforce her persistence.
    • Gold Top Dog
    So how long do I wait?  I don't want this to go on for months.  First of all, she's been knocking the kids down.  My youngest has gotten to where she's afraid of the dog now.  Second of all, it's really hard to ignore her when she seems so desparate for attention.  I've never in my life so blatantly ignored any of my pets when they ask for attention, so this feels downright cruel.  How long do I give it before I decide it's not working?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm afraid I don't have any other suggestions..... any corrective action you take could be deemed to be rewarding on her part so aside from reinforcing this behaviour by reassuring her and ensuring it will continue, I don't see any other option.  Do you have stair gates?  Could you put her behind a stair gate each time she attempts the "hugging"?  Would also be useful to keep kids safe while she is learning not to do this.  Have any attempts to get a "sit" or "down" BEFORE she manages to "hug" been successful?
    • Gold Top Dog
    We don't have stair gates.  If I tell her to "sit", she complies immediately.  The problem is that as soon as I move to walk away, stop petting her, whatever, she is immediately up for a hug.  If we approach her she tries to hug.  If we catch her first with a command, she obeys the command and then immediately tries to hug.  If we ignore her completely, she comes to us and tries to hug regardless of whatever else we are doing.  I just don't know what to do.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    Imagine if someone gave you a fiver every time you clapped.  Any time you wanted some cash, you'd clap.  Now imagine it stopped all of a sudden.... You wouldn't twig straight away that this was no longer a viable strategy and you'd try again, thinking, "What the hey, it worked before????"  You'd clap and clap and clap and clap, harder and louder and more often and wonder why you weren't getting anywhere, thinking "Give me the money dammit!  Argh!  Just give me the money!"  And then, eventually, you'd give up.

    Now imagine the clapping is her hugging and the money is your attention.  See what's happening?  Usually, when the behaviour seems most frantic, it's about to expire.  Unfortunately, that's the point most people buckle and decide it's not working and give in.  This teaches the dog, "Pheweee!  It still works.  I just got to try harder and be really persistent, but it will work eventually."  So if someone has tried this tactic before, she will be extremely persistent and it will take longer for the tactic to work and for her to give up.  If you give in now, you will reinforce her persistence.


    Great post, Chuffy.  And, the answer to your question about how long to wait, Katran, is that you wait until the behavior stops.  Or, frankly, you rehome the dog if you are not willing to put in the effort to wait.  If  that happens, my hope is that you would consider contacting a veterinary behaviorist for some advice before completely throwing in the towel.

    If it seems cruel to ignore her, imagine how cruel it would be to have to give her up.  If you disappear into the bathroom without a glance or a word, and she gets nothing for her efforts to hug, sooner or later she will figure out that it isn't getting her anything, and she will quit.  But, only one glance or "off" or push with a hand, and she's "gotcha", which will keep the nuisance behavior happening.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: spiritdogs:

     And, the answer to your question about how long to wait, Katran, is that you wait until the behavior stops.  Or, frankly, you rehome the dog if you are not willing to put in the effort to wait.  If  that happens, my hope is that you would consider contacting a veterinary behaviorist for some advice before completely throwing in the towel.




    Well, that's what I'm asking:  how long do I wait until I decide that it is just not going to get any better and I need to seek outside professional help?  Weeks?  Months?  At what point do I know that I just cannot break her of this on my own?  I've never had a dog with this problem before.  I'm in uncharted territory here.

    And for the record, I would never rehome her just because of this issue.  If it comes down to it, I'd rather let her go on hugging if it seems to make her happy than rehome her.  But she definitely seems less happy since I started trying to break her of this habit.  Before she'd wag her tail while doing it and just seem peppy and energetic.  Mouth open, tongue out, ears up and alert.  Now she seems downright clingy, cowed and desperate for any kind of attention.  Ears droop, no tail wagging, etc.  I can't help but wonder if I'm doing more harm than good in trying to break her of this habit.
    • Gold Top Dog
    She is probably unhappy and confused because this tactic has always worked before - for a very long time by the sounds of it. 
     
    In addition to preventing the hug with a sit and leaving the room if she does hug you, perhaps you could use clicker training to teach her some new tricks which are endearing without being inappropriate?  It should also boost her confidence which is bound to have a good allround effect.
     
    I'd strongly recommend acquiring some gates, I don't know where we would be without ours.
     
    In answer how long to wait before you seek professional help - if you feel truly out of your depth and you feel the dog is stressed out, why not look into it now?  But definitely seek a trainer who uses positive methods, your dog sounds sensitive and insecure and I think a harsh trainer would be horrible for her.