Owners of submissive dogs...

I don't want my dogs to be aggressive, but assertive!  Does that sound too human?  However, my dogs are probably on the line between submissive and assertive.  If they don't know a dog and it behaves rather poorly, they seem to know it and kind of become more submissive, esp. the female.  Once they figure out the stranger then they are either playful or simply greeting.  Funny that the female can really be very assertive, and will show teeth, but another husky knows exactly what she is about, she would not bite..although if stranger didn't heed her warning she may, (and then he'd really have to deal with her brother!).but she doesnt' like being pushed about. If she doesn't get the stranger, she may cower and avoids confrontation that way.

Yes, it bothers me.  It does not bother me b/c I want my dog to be pushy and social, not at all.  The reason I choose German Shepherds was for their aloofness and indifference towards people and dogs.  However, often Kenya's submissiveness bothers me b/c I know at some times it is fear based and I feel bad that she is nervous and submissive.  We have slowly been developing her confidence without encouraging rude behaviors like mouthing, being pushy, barking, etc.  You would never know, but she is a very intense dog with a high drive and high energy.  What I really need is a flock of sheep.  However, when not told exactly what to do, her default is to get out of the way, find a dark corner, and just lay there and watch everyone else.  I do not want her to be tougher, I want her to be happy and not feel like she has to constantly watch her own back. 

Since you said "What do you guys think", only men can respond  .

Usually when I see submissive behavior in any of my fosters I equate that with some kind of fear that the dog has experienced.  I don't think in terms of getting the dog to be "tougher" but to help the dog have more self confidence and a better self esteem.  I definitely do not like a needy clingy dog but often in my house that is how they come.  I also feel that I have to work on the foster if the foster accepts bullying behavior by another dog. 

I have a belly crawler. It keeps her out of trouble with other dogs most times...I don't mind, but it is embarrassing every now and again, LOL.

I've also had the opposite extreme with the Akitas and no....not what I want at all.

On the whole...it's easier to deal with...if it's not actually fear....which here it isn't..it's just the temperament she was born with.

rwbeagles

On the whole...it's easier to deal with...if it's not actually fear....

I agree with this.  For me, it's easier to train and modify the behavior of the dogs we get at the shelter that do things like jump up on you and mouth you, pull really hard on the lead, bark and go crazy when you come to let them out - the things really assertive and confident dogs will do.  They are just easier for me to read.  My relatives all think Kenya is the greatest thing since sliced bread and don't believe me when I say there are issues we are working on.  The problem with a dog who has fear-based submission is that you never know exactly what the fear is for or how the dog will react.  With an over-confident, boisterous dog, you get to see exactly how it reacts and you know quite obviously when you are making progress.  With the fearful/submissive dog, things are often one step forward, two steps back...

Fearful and submissive get linked together but they aren't the same , right?

Yep.

With Miss Ellie it's painfully obvious, that she just wants to get along with all and sundry...she postures the way she does to allay any fears in dog OR person that she may be a threat.

You can see her vibrating when she meets another dog...there sitting or on her belly looking away throwing those signs...but in her eyes you can see she's like...."come on come on....let's get this out of the way so we can RUN"

And soon as the ritual is over she's off like a shot running and playing...just delighted with the whole business.

With people..."I am not a threat...please touch me...".

She gets MUCH pushier after the initial greeting lol....it's all an act to make clear what's important...the interaction...not status.

That's Ellie!

dogslife

Fearful and submissive get linked together but they aren't the same , right?

Right, but some dogs ARE submissive b/c of fear, and that's when I think that it's not OK to encourage that level of submissiveness. 

dogslife

Fearful and submissive get linked together but they aren't the same , right?

Nope not the same thing, to me at least. It can be situation/species dependant.

I have had Akitas that were fearful of certain people and yet dominant as can be over other dogs...and some dogs are dominant over the people they live with in their own minds....yet fearful of other dogs.

The two shouldn't be confused. An assertive pushy dog can be terrified of thunderstorms. A submissive dog might be really pushy with small kids...etc.

IMO a submissive dog can certainly be without fear and be 100% confident...and vice versa.

Salem is a submissive guy. He is my only dog and he is somewhat clingy toward my husband and I. We are trying to get him to be a little more outgoing by bringing him to the dog park and on play dates with other dogs. He is always the dog that gets picked on or humped at the dog park though. I feel bad for him. He tends to like the people at the dog park more then the dogs.

I don't want him to be agressive, but it would be nice if he was a little more assertive. He wont stand up for himself at all at the dog park. he just runs away from the other dog whinning looking for the nearest human to protect him.

 lol, I love dogs! 

My female when she was a puppy did seem like she may be too fearful of certain things.  But as she learned and got a little confidence, she adapted fine.  Of all things, you could never guess what her last fear was!  ...babies, more descript, toddlers.   My goodness, she would quiver when she saw one of those creatures coming for her.  It was at the beach and she loves the beach, but of course many toddlers and little Sibe girl, well... She was definately submissive/fear at that point.  It was kind of cute how she would just hang her head and give in to the patting.  But she did learn.  I never let any patting get too much and talked in comforting tones, showing children how to pat if they didn't get it, But most did.    Later on next encounter was ok..  She obviously didn't mind at all and did enjoy the attention. 

In comparison to my older husky, he was never be afraid of one thing.  But was he aggressive?, never.  He was most certainly assertive, and highly trustworthy when it came to people, children (whom he absolutely loved, he would bee-line for the baby strollers down the street or any gathering of children, he was such a delight!  And it was always mutual!  He did know how to defend, but amazingly never with any bites.  How he garnered the respect from another aggressive dog coming at us, I just won't ever know.  But as sweet and gentle a dog he was.

i have two dogs, both submissive in their own way. i think the type of submission i see in moca is perfect. it isnt fear based (anymore) and she is actually quite self confident. mostly just PREFERS to have humans take the lead she shows this with her submissive body language. i think for her, being a submissive pee-er made a difference because i put a LOT of efford into tackling that issue and it boosted her self confidence. now jason is submissive but often (not always) in a fearful way. THAT is not something i like seeing in a dog, because you can see how the dog is stressed...

spiritdogs

What do you guys think of this human tendency to want the dog to be tougher, despite that the behavior exists as a way to keep order?  

I haven't read the other responses yet. But I agree that people want their dogs to be less submissive and I think it's a shame. The word "submissive" has negative connotations, when really, it's just a description. There's nothing wrong with being submissive. And you're right - it's a human tendency to judge the dog as unhappy, weak, afraid, miserable. I think it's a form of anthropomorphizing.

It's the same thing with dominant. People want their dogs to be less dominant, because of their associations with the idea of a dominant, arrogant "brute". A butthole.

When in the dog world, both are just descriptions of the dog's nature and temperament.  

Edit: And yes, fear is something totally different.  

Good post Carla. I agree, submissiveness is not necessarily a bad thing. Dena is submissive to other dogs, but not in a fearful/roll on her back/pee all over herself kind of way, it's more of a "Oh, you want to be the boss? Okay, whatever, dude" kind of way. And I love it!!! She's been extremely well socialized from an early age so she knows exactly how to diffuse a potentially tense situation. If a bully comes along at the park she'll either ignore it or lay down on the ground until it goes away, then pop up and trot off, tail wagging. She's easy going, and just doesn't get worked up over stuff. She has no desire to be at the top, so no fighting for status. But she's not a pushover either, she can hold her own quite well with Keefer - the two of them rip toys and bones out of each other's mouths all the time, and she'll pin him in play, with him laying on the floor and her standing over him.

She's also not overly submissive to humans. She loves everyone and wants to get petted and kiss all over complete strangers, and she accepts our leadership without us having to work very hard at it. To me, that's the perfect dog!