How do you build respect?

"and she stood up and pointed and said "go to your beds" and they all went. To me that denotes respect. Her dogs listen to her."

but that's not "respect". In my houselike, like households described in several posts above, I do 90% of the training and exercising and playing and cuddling with the dogs. Naturally the dogs listen and pay attention to me-- they think I'm the source of all that is good, and we have carefully built up a system of communication and motivation. They usually pay no attention to my SO, because he has taught them that he is not very relevant to them. He uses cue words no one has ever taught them the meaning of and wonders why they just look at him in puzzlement. They know he never has any treats, toys, or games for them on his person, so why bother to obey him? his praise is clearly meaningless to them because he's never built it into a secondary reinforcer.

 My dogs are smart but the last time I checked they can neither read nor understand English fluently. They are not sitting here looking up at me thinking "my my I sure do respect her", but yet many of the above definitions seem to apply. I am at a true loss for why so many of your posts are directed at certain words. Must the dog understand the word as humans understand it in order for that word to have any validity when speaking about dogs? Must the word mean exactly the same thing to every single person in order for it to have validity when speaking about dogs? I have heard some people use the word "down" to command a dog to get off of something; I use it to command them to lie down. Should down be stricken from everyone's vocabulary?

I have to agree with dgriego. We cannot know what words our dogs would use to describe the esteem in which they hold us. And it doesn't matter! Getting too attached to the words and the meanings that WE have attached to them can only get in the way of positive discussion.

Now...  

Underdog_19

My fiance comes home and just cuddles and hugs and pets Dixie and gives him the high pitched voice.  In return she/we get an over excited dog that runs around crazily and gets mouthy when I'm not around.  So I guess you could say I get the respect and not her, even after I've told her many times about this and a trainer has also.

This is a tough one and it took some time to illustrate the importance to my husband of his cooperation. What finally did the trick was when Jaia and later B'asia started jumping on him and mouthing him. He said, "You've got to get these dogs under control"! I called them over and they sat politely at my side, watching the angry man...

"They seem to be perfectly under control to me."
"Well, did you see them jumping all over me"?
"Yes. They see you as a playmate and not a leader. They don't respect you"
"Well, what can I do to make them see me as a leader and respect me"?
"Be their leader. Be deserving of their respect"
"How do I do that"?
"Well, let me tell you." 

In other words, DH had to have the desire himself to learn. Of course, I've told him a hundred times when they were smaller that he was going to encounter this later, but he didn't listen. And I had to find a way to tell him what to do and how to act, sometimes in the midst of commotion, to help him set the boundaries and let the dogs know he was serious. He has a tendency to raise his voice, thinking that will help.  And just this morning, he was trying to do something and B'asia kept banging into him. He started raising his voice, saying "GO"! and pointing, thinking he was Moses or something...

I gently reminded him, "Energy, honey, not volume." and he took a breath, and then calmly and assertively told her "go." and she barked (extinction burst) but he didn't waver or respond and then she left. When he sees how it works, that encourages him for next time!

It takes time and the willingness to learn and sometimes that's a tough combination. Does your wife believe you to be the main "alpha"? Does she acknowledge that you know how to deal with the dogs?  

Whether we admit it or not, the words we use influence our behavior and attitudes.  Respect and leadership are abstract human concepts and not relevant to dogs- not relevant to most humans, for that matter. My dogs obey me because I have used operant conditioning to communicate and motivate. Whether they hold me in high esteem, admire me, or even like me is irrelevant. My dogs ignore my SO because he has, inadvertently, used operant conditioning to "extinguish" any response to his words- I'm sure they hold his ability to open the door in high-esteem and admire his grasp of the door-knob principle, but these mental attitudes don't affect their obedience. Your SO may have used operant conditioning to reinforce rough play cued by his presence. Once you think about in these simple terms, the solution to any unwanted behavior can be described in simple step by step fashion without any value judgements or words with multiple possible meanings.

Underdog_19

FourIsCompany

I don't. But his behavior indicates what I call respect. I can see how my dogs treat my husband differently than they treat me. B'asia jumps up on him sometimes and mouths his hand as though he's a playmate rather than a "parent" or leader. She doesn't do that to me and that says (to me) that she has respect for me above and beyond that which she has for her "equals" in the pack. 

 

This is the problem I'm running into.  I don't pretty much all the training and leadership.  My fiance comes home and just cuddles and hugs and pets Dixie and gives him the high pitched voice.  In return she/we get an over excited dog that runs around crazily and gets mouthy when I'm not around.  So I guess you could say I get the respect and not her, even after I've told her many times about this and a trainer has also.

I feel your pain. We have the same problem here!

I don't believe anyone knows HOW dogs view the concept of respect and leadership. I don't believe we can say whether or not these concepts are abstract to dogs. We have no way of knowing. Anytime we say how a dog thinks, it's simply a guess.

As for their relevance to most humans, I'm going to have to disagree that they have none. Respect is the basis of many relationships (including my marriage) and leadership is also clearly relevant to the human species. I am totally baffled by the statement to the contrary.

I can accept that a dog's "feelings" of esteem and admiration are irrelevant to some people. But a blanket statement that they are irrelevant is, I believe, incorrect. How my dog views me (his level of esteem) is highly important in our relationship. I may not be able to name these concepts exactly as he would, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or are irrelevant.

mudpuppy

Once you think about in these simple terms, the solution to any unwanted behavior can be described in simple step by step fashion without any value judgements or words with multiple possible meanings.

Exactly my feelings about the words respect and leadership. So, one some level, I guess we do agree.

mudpuppy

Whether we admit it or not, the words we use influence our behavior and attitudes.  Respect and leadership are abstract human concepts and not relevant to dogs- not relevant to most humans, for that matter. My dogs obey me because I have used operant conditioning to communicate and motivate. Whether they hold me in high esteem, admire me, or even like me is irrelevant. My dogs ignore my SO because he has, inadvertently, used operant conditioning to "extinguish" any response to his words- I'm sure they hold his ability to open the door in high-esteem and admire his grasp of the door-knob principle, but these mental attitudes don't affect their obedience. Your SO may have used operant conditioning to reinforce rough play cued by his presence. Once you think about in these simple terms, the solution to any unwanted behavior can be described in simple step by step fashion without any value judgements or words with multiple possible meanings.

 I can only respond by using one word and one word only: "whatever".

You have your beliefs and I have mine, I do think that your aversion to certain words is a minority one but it is valid for you and that is fine. I on the other hand will continue to use such words and I am sure you will continue to respond with your reasoning as to why these words are invalid when pertaining to dogs. I am neither a scientist nor a scholar, and I have no desire to start becoming one now. Ordinary words work well for those of us who are ordinary everyday people.

 I cannot help but think that your zeal regarding these words stems from your zeal for the method of training you prefer and also in relation to the stardom of some who we shall not bother to name here that use and condone methods of which you disagree passionately. There is nothing wrong with your zeal or your passion, but to reflect it against words seems to me is a lessening of your overall ability to promote your views, which seems to be your objective. And truthfully when I read both sides (yours and mine) I really do not see that much difference in them. I just use the words and you disagree with using the words. The meaning in the end is pretty much the same.

Anyway that is my opinion and you are entitled to yours and I respect that, I just wish you would respect my right (and other’s) and entitlement to express myself using a word that I have gone above and beyond to explain my meaning of the word without always resorting to a scientific explanation of why the word is wrong.

 It just gets tiresome.

houndlove

It seems like it's pretty common for one person in the house to do most or all of the training, and we notice a difference in the ways the dogs respond to both parties. It's like that in my house. The dogs love DH and DH loves the dogs but he does exactly zero of the training, doesn't know the first thing about how to train a dog, and doesn't listen very carefully to me when I give him exact instructions for how to deal with X Y or Z problem. He's heard me blow our emergency recall whistle a katrillion times in a set pattern--the same way every time. Yet when he picks that dang thing up to blow it he just kind of tootles any old which way he pleases (even though I have explicitly told him: this is the way you blow it). And no matter how many times I've told him to ignore the dogs' obnoxious attention-seeking behavior (even down to how to ignore it most effectively) he still manages to completely indulge them, all the while going "No guys, come on, get out of here, scram".

sounds familiar. after years and years of trying to explain to my wife the ways to keep our dogs from jumping up on her, it's the same ol - same ol.... in-one-ear-and-out-the-other.... and then she complains when the dogs jump up on her. no clue at all.

so i share your frustration houndlove :)

FourIsCompany

 What finally did the trick was when Jaia and later B'asia started jumping on him and mouthing him. He said, "You've got to get these dogs under control"! I called them over and they sat politely at my side, watching the angry man...

1. "They seem to be perfectly under control to me."
2. "Well, did you see them jumping all over me"?
3. "Yes. They see you as a playmate and not a leader. They don't respect you"
4. "Well, what can I do to make them see me as a leader and respect me"?
5. "Be their leader. Be deserving of their respect"
6. "How do I do that"?
7. "Well, let me tell you." 

for me, the dialog stops between 3 and 4..... i never get that question "well then, how do i get their respect" out of my wife. maybe she just doesn't want to put in any effort because, well, it requires effort and desire to learn something new. i dunno - shrugging shoulders -

mudpuppy

Respect and leadership are abstract human concepts and not relevant to dogs- not relevant to most humans, for that matter.

this may be so.... but the ENERGY which is being projected behind these abstract attributes is completely relevant to BOTH dogs and humans.

This link right here is an example of how applying this idea of "respect" to dog training can go wrong. Most people are not thinking about all the different definitions of "respect" when someone tells them that they need to have their dogs respect them. They are thinking what "respect" means to them as human beings, not how that translates to how a dog perceives the world. Thus, dog does not recall because it has never been trained to, but this is now a respect issue becuase when you're a kid and you mom calls, if you respect your mom, you come. No one had to train you. So a dog should do that too if they respect you, right?

houndlove

This link right here is an example of how applying this idea of "respect" to dog training can go wrong. Most people are not thinking about all the different definitions of "respect" when someone tells them that they need to have their dogs respect them. They are thinking what "respect" means to them as human beings, not how that translates to how a dog perceives the world. Thus, dog does not recall because it has never been trained to, but this is now a respect issue becuase when you're a kid and you mom calls, if you respect your mom, you come. No one had to train you. So a dog should do that too if they respect you, right?

houndlove that might be true for some people if you just gave out a blanket statement saying "your problem is that your dog does not respect you".  No defining what you mean by that and no instructions on how to achieve that. Reading this thread that we are participating in clearly spells out what everyone means when they talk about respect and there is nothing that might suggest that you should hit your dog. Just because idiots and misguided people exist in the world is no reason to toss out the dictionary.

  I do not think it is “most” people. If “most” people believed as you seem to think we would have a lot more beatings going on and a lot more child abuse. I believe that the majority of people understand what the word “respect” means and very few equate it with beating someone or something until it is achieved.

houndlove

This link right here is an example of how applying this idea of "respect" to dog training can go wrong.

That's one person. One 17-year-old person who asked for help and EVERYONE else in the thread set her straight. She didn't say SHE hits the dog, she said that's one extreme of the methods she read about.

houndlove

They are thinking what "respect" means to them as human beings, not how that translates to how a dog perceives the world.

What's wrong with thinking of respect as it applies to human beings? I certainly hope that we human beings don't go around slapping on people because they don't respect us...

houndlove

So a dog should do that too if they respect you, right?

No. Are you seriously trying to say that people reading here expect dogs to know to obey commands that they've never been taught? I just don't think people are that stupid.  

If someone is going to hit a dog, they're going to do it regardless what word they use to justify it. If they don't care, they're not going to be on boards like this searching for ideas about how to deal with their dogs. None of us here are at risk of thinking the word "respect" means that it's good to hit a dog. It doesn't mean that in human terms. Except to the sick individuals who slap on their family members to try to get "respect" and they're going to hit children and dogs whether we talk about respect or not. And I'm also pretty sure, they're not reading this thread...

 Are you seriously trying to say that people reading here expect dogs to know to obey commands that they've never been taught? I just don't think people are that stupid. 

People reading this particular thread? No. People in general? It's entirely possible.  

How many times have we heard someone come on this board and complain that their dog doesn't get off the bed when they ask them to. We ask, "have you taught the dog "off"?" No.  Or "My dog doesn't come when I call". Have you taught the dog "Come?" No. Or "My dog doesn't walk at heel when we go on walks." Have you taught the dog how to do that? No. It happens all the time. Maybe I'm just way too cynical but I see examples of people thinking that dogs actually do understand English all the time. It's common that people think they've taught a dog a command when in fact all they've done is used a word (or a whole series of words, or a bunch of words that to us are synonyms but to a dog are totally different sounds, a bunch of times in a bunch of different contexts and just assumed the dog would pick it up. And when the dog doesn't the assumption is often (not always but enough that we see it here a fair amount) that the dog doesn't respect them enough and he's being a bad dog, not that he hasn't been taught properly. Do you remember the woman with the husky who was completely convinced her dog was capital B-bad because he was getting in to the garbage and soiling the house at 10 months old?  And then he started growling at her when she was punishing him? Everyone said "You need to teach your dog to not do these things!" and she insisted that wasn't the problem, the dog was just bad.

We were just joking about it earlier up thread, how our various spouses tend to use a bunch of random command words on the dogs and then get confused when they don't respond to them, because they haven't been taught. Now imagine a house hold in which neither person knew how to handle and teach dogs effectively. Two people who just say random things to the dogs and expect them to understand because they say them with an authoritative tone of voice.  How many dogs do you think wind up in shelters because of this?  

It is a shame that we can't have a simple conversation without choosing "sides" and going into the "they vs us" mode.

To me, words matter.  I do not house BREAK my dogs, I house TRAIN my dogs.  One little word different but to ME it has a huge attitude affect.  Not on the dogs, but rather on the PERSON.  Some people have their dogs fixed (poor thing was broken?) while I have mine spayed, nuetered or altered.

As to all these other words?  Yeah, they have an impact on the way we think, I believe.  And I don't think that I mean "leadership" in the same way that others might mean it.  Or respect for that matter.

And without a clear agreement as to the definition of the words involved, I'm not sure how any group can have a conversation that doesn't become at least a bit hostile.