what could I have done differently?

    • Gold Top Dog

    what could I have done differently?

    Hi.  I have been hanging around and reading for a good while.  I just never felt the need to post until now.
    Anyway, I have a husky mix named Zeus.  This morning we were on our usual walk when out of nowhere a big husky came at us. Zeus was on leash, the stray was not.  Zeus is a bit dog aggressive on leash.  He barks, the dog goes on it's way...the end. Not so today.  This monster comes at us at with full body stance, totally trying to invade our space.
    I panic.  Things are not looking good.  Zeus, of course is carrying on like a wild animal, I am throwing things and telling this dog "back back", which is doing nothing but arousing Zeus more.
    The dog would not go on about his business.  If I got Zeus calmed and moving, here came the monster on our heel.
    We were a good piece from home and I didn't see any safety exists anywhere.
    At one time the dogs were just inches away from one another, I thought then all heck was going to break loose.  I am a small women and it was taking everything I had to keep Zeus even close to being under control.  The times I did get him under control the dog would just come up full chested and challenging...like, "you wanna piece of me?" Zeus would then go into a frenzy.
    Finally some guys working came out to see what the commotion was about and sort of herded the dog away so I could get Zeus home.
    This was definitely my worst nightmare. Zeus is large but this dog was larger.  Zeus is also 12.  But there is little doubt he would have fought to the death.
    I keep going over this in my head, knowing that I made as many mistakes as a human in full panic mode can make.  But most of all, I feel like I let Zeus down. I try with everything I have not to allow him to get into these situations.  That's my job and I take it seriously. Zeus is not agressive to all dogs.  Just large dogs who challenge him.
    I cannot find a scenario in my head that would have brought us out of this situation calmly.  That is why I am asking you all.....
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ooh thats a tough and stressful situation. I know all to well your balance to keep things calm yet trying to keep the other dog at bay, UGH!!!
    That happened to Rory and I one time ( I too am a small person) but thankfully a real deep "go away" shooed him off.
    Anyhoo I have heard people do things such as carry doggy pepper spray or even a umbrella that pops open with a button so you can scare the heck out of them which from what I hear works pretty well.
     
    Worst case scenario:
    It is our natural instinct to protect what is our BUT as you said yourself your dog gets more frusterated when leashed. God forbid if that dog actually came after you you would do best by letting your dog go. Now some people are going to argue this with me but all feelings aside the basics are this....
    If you try and body block the dog from yours not only could you possibly be hurt but you are frusterating your dog making him reacct more viciously and escalating the incident. If you think it it inevitable that contact is going to be made you NEED to give your dog all the possible defenses he has to protect himself and you. Because if contact is inevitable and you are trying to pull your dog away and are hindering him he could end up getting hurt worse becuase your yanking on his neck.
    I understand its not the most desired situation but trying to help could be more of a hinder.
     
    I personally would rather carry pepper spray. I hate the thought of having to spray some dog but I would do my best to disway the dog before I actually sprayed him.
     
    This is a relevant to people who walk their dogs off leash when its not permitted, their dogs coming charging and the owners have no clue as to wether my dog is leash aggressive but I just love how they give the "oh he's nice" call. UGH, one time this lady had a giant shnauzer and he came charging, she gave the nice call and I said NO, leash him now its the law and he is growling at my dog. She gave me a rude look and said your not a cop. I said ok then if you dont leash your dog I'm letting mine go.
     Ok ok I know I shouldnt use Rory's breed or on guard looks like that, its not right but she quickly leashed her dog....the witch!
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm with sheprano on this.  Carry something (pepper spray or direct stop) to help prevent an incident.  If the incident does occur, release your dog and call for help (911 is usually a good option.)  Holding onto your large dog while he's involved in an altercation puts the both of you in jeapardy. 
     
    The best way to deal with this incident is to avoid that area on your walks.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks for replying. 

    When the dogs were almost nose to nose, I knew that one inch further and I would have to let Zeus go.  I am the same way you are..if a person has their dog off leash and it saunters up to mine acting stupid, I tell them straight up, leash him or I'll let mine go. I will not let Zeus fight on leash.  Also, I knew better than to block either dog. It was not possible without endangering myself...not at this point. Getting in the middle of two aroused huskys is not on my list of things to be doing.

    I actually hit the thing twice with some logs that were laying around. (big fields and river area)  I was grabbing anything and everything.  He blinked when it bounced off of his head and invaded our space even more.  The very same minute that I was going to turn Zeus loose, I looked at the dog and thought...If I had a gun, I'd blow your head off.  Isn't that awful?  It was also at that moment, the guys walked out and toward the dog and things calmed down.

    One guy told me later that the dog wasn't wild or anything and probably wouldn't have bothered us (even though the guy said he growled at him)   But I saw his full body stance,the blocking, his invasion of Zeus's space, his hackles raised, the stare.  I knew what was going on.

    I have pepper spray, which I have every intention of carrying with me starting tomorrow.  But I don't think it is doggy pepper spray.  Is there a difference?  I am also a bit afraid that if I do have to spray, it may come back on me and Zeus if the wind is blowing.

    I really wished that I would have stayed calmer...but I knew that I was fixing to see a bloodbath the likes of which I've never seen before. I dunno...maybe I did everything that could be done. I am just seriously sick about the whole thing.

    I really can't avoid the area.  It is pretty much my back yard. Not my backyard, per se, but the whole area behind my house.

    The poor dog had to go to the pound, which broke my heart.  But what was I to do? Zeus and I have walked this area for years.   Even though he is 12, he still requires daily walks.   I also don't think he could have whipped this dog. If we went out tomorrow and Zeus ended up layed up mangled at the vet from another encounter. I would never forgive myself.


    • Gold Top Dog
    Oh you defintly did everything you could do in the situation. It sucks that he had to go to the pound but it will defintly give his owners second thought about where they are keeping him. If they are concerned owners then there are a ton mor reasons why they should have him in a more secure area. If they arnt responsible owenrs then this incident is on file incase it happens again.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    The dog warden brought him to me to identify.  The poor thing had not been taken care of at all.  His ear tips looked raw.  He was found in the same area that he came from when he first saw Zeus and I. (During the walk, as soon as I saw the dog, I was redirecting Zeus to a safe area to avoid trouble)
    Anyway, the dog warden found the dog in some woman's yard.  He was growling at both her and her dog. So, eventually there would have been big trouble some where down the line.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Oh that infuriates me! What is wrong with people who cant keep their dog and just let it go, assuming thats what happened, who knows.
    Poor guy, well at least now they have him and can decide if he can be rehabilitated. We had a incident like this at our local spca about 6 years ago. They brought this malnourished VICIOUS hound in, we were all scared to death of him. After he ate he was the perfect gentlemen and last I knew (around 2 years ago) one of the other spca volunteers took him home and he was fine. The poor thing was juist hungry and was pissed about it, he he
    I wish all stories could end that way but I'm sure his outcome is pretty rare, just being mean cause he was hungry
    • Gold Top Dog
    What confuses me is, if dogs are so sociable, why do they want to kill one another I wonder?

    I am thinking they may be more terrioritorial than sociable.  Zeus pees on everything during his walks.  He walks on a horse lead, so while he is sniffing and peeing, I am still walking.  Then he runs to catch up.  Until the next pee spot.

    This dog was first in the area where Zeus and I had already walked. We go up one side of the field, go to the river for awhile, then walk back on the opposite side.  I totally recall him with his head down sniffing because I was thinking that he was going on his merry way.

     Maybe he was sniffing where Zeus had been earlier. Maybe he had even been there earlier, before Zeus and I.

    See where I am going with all of this?  Maybe claiming territory trumps the social factor.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: JM

    What confuses me is, if dogs are so sociable, why do they want to kill one another I wonder?


    They are social creatures however they are social within their own groups.  Dogs, if we follow the wolf , are not meant to be friendly towards strangers-especially not strange dogs.  Look at the jobs that dogs were associated with:  Alarming the encampment if someone was approaching, protecting flocks from predators, and hunting.  If any strange dog came around they were to sound the alarm and/or drive the intruder away.


    I am thinking they may be more terrioritorial than sociable.  Zeus pees on everything during his walks.  He walks on a horse lead, so while he is sniffing and , I am still walking.  Then he runs to catch up.  Until the next pee spot.


    Sounds like you've got a typical male there. 


    This dog was first in the area where Zeus and I had already walked. We go up one side of the field, go to the river for awhile, then walk back on the opposite side.  I totally recall him with his head down sniffing because I was thinking that he was going on his merry way.

    Maybe he was sniffing where Zeus had been earlier. Maybe he had even been there earlier, before Zeus and I.

    See where I am going with all of this?  Maybe claiming territory trumps the social factor.


    The social factor vs territory?  I'm thinking it was all about resource guarding:  The other dog saw your dog as an intruder to be chased/bullied away.
    • Gold Top Dog
    You could carry "Direct Stop", which is a citronella spray deterrent, so even if it blows back on you, it won't hurt you or your dog.  
    • Gold Top Dog
    Yeah.  Thanks.  Someone mentioned this earlier. I just looked it up. It looks like this is what I need. So first thing in the morning I am going to the pet store to get some. Pepper spray is a little scary.  But so is going out there without anything. (I'll admit to being high strung and easily trumatized)  Zeus on the other hand, when arriving home after the ordeal, had a look of being totally in the zone... I think he actually enjoyed himself.

    Surely this will lead to even worse leash/dog aggression. Which I am really not sure how to handle. Usually I just redirect him and get him moving in another direction.  I don't know what else to do. He is not a puller when walking and cares absolutely nothing for treats.

    So...anybody got any ideas?
    • Gold Top Dog

    Okay. Thanks for replying.  This makes total sense.


    ORIGINAL: Xerxes

    ORIGINAL: JM

    What confuses me is, if dogs are so sociable, why do they want to kill one another I wonder?


    They are social creatures however they are social within their own groups.  Dogs, if we follow the wolf , are not meant to be friendly towards strangers-especially not strange dogs.  Look at the jobs that dogs were associated with:  Alarming the encampment if someone was approaching, protecting flocks from predators, and hunting.  If any strange dog came around they were to sound the alarm and/or drive the intruder away.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Oftentimes you can bluff your way out of a situation like this by teaming up with your dog and advancing on the stray dog with a confident and aggressive stance. You wouldn't want to do it if you weren't confident enough to think it would work, or if the dog was charging you, but it sounds like the dog was hesitant enough that he wasn't making contact. Dogs that pause for thought before attacking are usually pretty open to the idea that you and your dog outnumber them and they should maybe cut their losses and get out while they still can if you give them reason to believe you mean business.

    It's a tricky game, though, and it can take a bit of guts. I've never had it backfire on me, but I wouldn't try it if it was just Penny and me because she's so small I think larger dogs automatically wipe her out of the equation. I think it would work with a husky, though.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Corvus is right, dogs by themselves have more doubts in their minds about "winning" a fight that if they dont have a partner, the difference is that it was 2 against one, we dont need to be Einstein to realize that the other dog knew he was in not a good position, the difference was that he could sense you were on panic, that made him realize that you were afraid of him and gave him  more power to go foward, he could think that panic could be transmitted to your dog and then he would be the most confident one from you 3 and had a chance to dominate

    You dont need to charge back at him, if you only have in your mind an attitude of "hey dude we are 2 against one so shut up" while you are just passing by that can make a difference, he can sense that attitude and can feel you are confident enough and will think about it twice before moving foward
    • Puppy
    Do you think it would have been different if your dog didn't respond to the other dog?  Where I live, very few dogs are on leashes, my lab never walks with a leash, but she looks to me when other dogs approach her.  She will completely ignore them and keep trotting right by.  She is "overtrained" according to every person that knows her, but everytime an aggressive dog comes up to us, she ignores it like it isn't even there and it goes away.  Sometimes I think dog owners make too much of the barrier between our dogs and us.  Aren't they supposed to be man's best friend?  I take two of my dogs with me a lot, they are both very protective if they see the need, but very obedient if they are told to back off.  I have had known aggressive dogs jump on my lab and she just walks away and knows that I won't let that dog near her.  Your "pack" doesn't necessarily have to be canines.  When I am on trail rides, my horse knows when he is needed.  My dog will hide behind him when another runs up growling and barking at her.  He has no problems pinning his ears back and going after other dogs when they threaten his dog.  My dog even saved my kitten from a visiting dog that was attacking it!  All of the dogs know which cats belong on the property and which ones don't.  You can teach your dog to listen to you over accepting a challenge to fight.  In many cases, the challenging dog will go away once you are out of his territory.  The most important thing is the persons attitude towards the whole thing.  If you panic, then the dogs (yours and the other) will feed off of it.