Dispelling the Myths About Clicker Training

snownose

mudpuppy

Myth: you need a clicker to do "clicker training".

False. You can use any of a number of "markers" instead of a clicker.

 

Alrighty...then....it's official.....I am a clicker trainer by snapping my fingers......that was easy.....lol

Really?  Actually "load" the signal in the same way and follow every finger snap with a reward?  I did try this and found my timing was off.  it takes too long to snap my fingers to mark behaviour.  Would be handy if I could master it because you never lose your fingers and you never find they are not there when you need them...

Myth:  Dogs that have been trained another way cannot be "clicker-trained" because they just get confused.

Totally false!!  Some dogs do get confused, but they can get past that with a little help, patience and creativity

Chuffy

Totally false!!  Some dogs do get confused, but they can get past that with a little help, patience and creativity

You wouldn't believe the number of dogs I've seen that when finally introduced to a clicker you could almost see the "There, NOW my human gets it!".

(You know, as opposed to "Now I get it", since most teaching errors are almost entirely on the hands of the handler miscommunicating their wants and goals).

Kim_MacMillan

And in reality I find that most dogs find this stunning moment of clarity where everything finally makes sense to them.

Ah, those "lightbulb moments"!  Can't beat 'em.

Myth:  Clicker training makes the dog over excited and is only good for tasks where you want the dog in that state.

False.  If you want calm, behaviour, click for calm behaviour!  There is even a book called "click to calm".  I've used a clicker to reinforce calmness so I can tell you categorically that the above myth is false.  The beauty of this training is - you can reinforce ANYTHING.

Chuffy

Myth: Clicker trainers are "soft" or permissive

 I believe Ed Frawley said something about using clickers and markers on his site. That is about as hard as you can get.

dgriego

I believe Ed Frawley said something about using clickers and markers on his site. That is about as hard as you can get.

Yes, and Ed Frawley also says this:

The difference between what I do and what these ineffective obedience classes do is that once the dog has learned an exercise with markers I add distractions. When the distraction becomes so high that it promotes disobedience I correct the dog.

The difference between him and, well, most of the rest of the world (I'm trying to be nice here, I tend to try to give all people the benefit of the doubt but this man goes beyond anything considered humane or ethical), is that people who use markers actually KNOW how to slowly increase distractions so that "disobedience" (ie not reacting to a cue) is never "promoted". Anybody who allows distractions to "promote" "disobedience" (I use these words in parentheses on purpose), is not using a marker correctly and does not understand how to build behaviours in the face of distractions. So he doesn't have the same knowledge of how to appopriately use markers as some others do, and he resorts to the use of punishments because of that.

Don't even get me started on F*****y.  And thats another myth busted right there.... A LOT of people use the clicker in this way, or a similar way.  Or they use the clicker to teach the dog AT HOME, then assume he "knows" the cue and gives it when out on a walk and the dog is highly distracted..... and then they either don't know what to do because they expected it ti work (???) or they try to punish the dog.

Edited to say that I think Kim has handled this discussion masterfully, and with great aplomb, and no further comment needed...

dgriego

I believe Ed Frawley said something about using clickers and markers on his site. That is about as hard as you can get.

Yeah, I didn't know clickers or markers were discussed on that site at all. So ... great! That offers more myths to dispel! 

Here's some actual text from Frawley, http://www.leerburg.com/philosophy.htm:

Most Trainers are too Passive

Most new trainers are too passive. This is either a result of them having a soft personality or temperament or it's the result of the handler being exposed to ineffective and poor dog training techniques. We see this frequently in training classes which only focus on positive training methods while ignoring distractions and corrections. (i.e. classes that only use clickers and head halters - Pet Smart pr Petco style trainers)

Don’t get me wrong, I like using clickers. I train with them and markers (rather than a clicker I will use my voice and say "OK";). You can read the article I wrote on my web site about training with markers.

The difference between what I do and what these ineffective obedience classes do is that once the dog has learned an exercise with markers I add distractions. When the distraction becomes so high that it promotes disobedience I correct the dog. My philosophy is the only way to get consistency in training and ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU DIFFERANTLY LACKS EXPERIENCE.

On the other end of the scale we find professional dog trainers who take in customer dogs for training. The vast majority of these trainers use far too much force. I have already said “time is money” to these people and they can force a dog into submission a lot quicker than they can take it through a learning phase that uses markers.

Thirty five to forty years ago people trained dogs almost exclusively with force. Read the old William Kohler books. William Koehler is the model-T of the dog training world. I read them when I was 16 and thought they were the cats ***. Since then I have come to realize that Koehler was the master of yank and crank training.

In recent years the pendulum has swung to the other end of the spectrum . Today clickers and head halters with no corrections and the fad. This fad is wrong and is playing itself out in the dog world because we see an explosion of dominance and aggressive dog problems as family pets.

Once again the correct position is in the middle. The difference between a good trainer and a great trainer is the great trainer will always balance point between motivation and correction.

 I was not trying to start a Frawley fight. I was pointing out that the myth "clicker trainers are soft" cannot be true if Frawley is using clickers.

 The statement was not made as a support of Frawley or to start a Frawley discussion. It was just to show that the myth someone posted cannot be true.

dgriego

 I was not trying to start a Frawley fight. I was pointing out that the myth "clicker trainers are soft" cannot be true if Frawley is using clickers.

 The statement was not made as a support of Frawley or to start a Frawley discussion. It was just to show that the myth someone posted cannot be true.

 

 

I didn't think you were trying to start a Frawley fight, but I will say that Frawley is NOT a clicker trainer.  He is a trainer who uses a clicker occasionally.  Big difference.  Very big difference.  

The myth that clicker trainers are soft is a fallacy, but not for that reason.  Clicker trainers can be every bit as demanding of their dogs, but the dogs are not coerced - they work willingly.  Why?  Because there's something in it for them, and they understand the rules.  For many years, dogs had to do as we asked because WE got something out of it, and we fooled ourselves into thinking the dogs were always loving it, too (sometimes the biggest myth of all).  Our local obedience club still has one trainer who is alpha rolling puppies for not understanding what is expected when they get dragged around the ring being "taught" to heel.  I teach my dogs "heel" without even using a leash.  Now, it is possible for both dog and human to gain, but even in the face of some pretty overwhelming evidence that most, if not all, dogs can learn this way, we still have people like her perpetuating MYTHS. 

spiritdogs

I didn't think you were trying to start a Frawley fight, but I will say that Frawley is NOT a clicker trainer.  He is a trainer who uses a clicker occasionally.  Big difference.  Very big difference. 

  So what is a clicker trainer? Is it someone who always uses the clicker for everything? Can it be someone who uses the clicker for some things and not others?

 It seems to me that anyone who uses a clicker can be called a clicker trainer. Out of that of course you would have good clicker trainers and bad clicker trainers.

 There is a difference between a clicker trainer and someone who sometimes trains using a clicker. Here's an article about it: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/642

dgriego

spiritdogs

I didn't think you were trying to start a Frawley fight, but I will say that Frawley is NOT a clicker trainer.  He is a trainer who uses a clicker occasionally.  Big difference.  Very big difference. 

 

  So what is a clicker trainer? Is it someone who always uses the clicker for everything? Can it be someone who uses the clicker for some things and not others?

 It seems to me that anyone who uses a clicker can be called a clicker trainer. Out of that of course you would have good clicker trainers and bad clicker trainers.

To me, someone who progresses in increments so that the dog is set up for sucess and marked and reward when they DO succeed - I would see that person as a "clicker trainer".  Someone who "tests" the dog, pushes him beyond his limits of obedience deliberately in order to correct them... I strugle to think of that person as a "clicker trainer" because in al honesty I really wonder if they have grasped the principles behind OC at all...

I apologise ofor the even crumier than usual typing. My keyboard has decidedI am not alowed to pres any key more than once. If I double tap a key for a double space, delete or a double leter it only does it once and it wants a severl second gap before it wil let me use that key again. I have no idea why it is doing this or how to fix it!

Another myth (this is a popular one!)

Clicker trainers bribe their dogs!

ARGH that anoys me so much!

Chuffy

Another myth (this is a popular one!)

Clicker trainers bribe their dogs!

ARGH that anoys me so much!

I want to say LOL, but I'm not really laughing...   But don't we all bribe our dogs? I know I do. I bribe them with praise, food, butt scratches, freedom, getting to do what they want to do. I know clicking is marking a behavior, but if there was no bribery, you couldn't charge the clicker in the first place, could you?

Am I confused? (Don't answer that!)  

Well, it's a point about bribe vs. reward. We all reward our dogs for their good behavior. But for something to be a bribe, you have to present the possible reward first, then ask for the behavior ("I've got $20, how about moving us up on the waiting list?" as opposed to "Would you mind moving us up on the waiting list? Thanks! Here's $20 for your trouble.";). This gets flung a lot at clicker trainers because the implication is that a dog who is clicker trained will never perform unless you have a treat on your person. That's what happens when you bribe dogs. They get hip to that very quickly and learn to first look for the bribe to gauge whether or not they should perform the behavior. It's why I'm very careful to not even make a movement towards my pocket or bait bag until after the behavior is performed--just that movement can actually start to cue the dog, instead of your command word or hand signal.