Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

FourIsCompany

It's quite another to go into a thread where people are having a good discussion and throw a wrench in the works by berating Cesar (for example) and his "followers", as if they're some kind of cult.

Emphasis added by me.

To me, that is what some of his "followers" come across like.  It IS kind of about celebrity.  Not jealousy, not sour grapes.  Just celebrity status.  There are people who are about CM the way I am about, say, Monty Python.  You might say "he's reached cult status".  KWIM?  Almost a religious following.  Again, the similarity to religion.... just like how you can't voice a disagreement about another's religion, you can't voice a disagreement about the way CM does stuff without facing a tirade of defensive language and accusations of baiting etc.  Someone disagrees with the way Pryor does things and - so what?  No big deal.  I see where the OP is coming from (I think) but the truth is, neither "side" is better than the other on this issue.

Ixas_girl

sillysally

If you do a forum search for "Gentle Leader" you will see CM fans blasting GLs too

 

People across the training spectrum criticise that device, including Suzanne Clothier, who all "camps" claim to some degree.

But that's getting off topic, sorry.

Susan Clothier also thinks that training with a prong can be good, so if the all positive "camp" claims her, then they can't be all that close-minded.....

However, I tend to see the same people (many of whom have never even used the device), discounting it in the GL threads.... 

sillysally

The very people who criticize CM have stated why they don't like him (repeatly, over and over again). 

I recall many occasions where i have carefully worded a post; half of it stating where i AGREE with CM the other half where i disagree.  yet the "fans" have literally jumped on me and accused me of "bashing" - apparently blind to any positive comments I have made.  I can sort of "get" the CM "bashers", if they truly think he is harming dogs.  But I don't get the "CM basher bashers" (!!)  - because what have the "CM-bashers" ever done to hurt dogs?  Who VARES if they don't like him??  And why get more defensive about CM than he does himself??  He just shrugs, smiles and says, "there's room for lots of methods out there".

Chuffy

I recall many occasions where i have carefully worded a post; half of it stating where i AGREE with CM the other half where i disagree.  yet the "fans" have literally jumped on me and accused me of "bashing" - apparently blind to any positive comments I have made.  I can sort of "get" the CM "bashers", if they truly think he is harming dogs.  But I don't get the "CM basher bashers" (!!)  - because what have the "CM-bashers" ever done to hurt dogs?  Who VARES if they don't like him??  And why get more defensive about CM than he does himself??  He just shrugs, smiles and says, "there's room for lots of methods out there".

 There is truth to this comment, I of course sort of feel it from the other side, because I agree with Cesar on something I am discounted as having any "positive" attributes.

 As stated by others, neither side is the knight in white armor, both sides can be unbalanced and some of us (I will speak for myself) have at one time or another been caught up in it and have responded in what could be seen as an inappropriate response.

 I would just like to see balance, I do not think Cesar is god, nor do I define myself as a Cesar follower (more of a Cesar supporter), he is not perfect, he has not arrived to the point where he can no longer improve, yet neither has any other trainer and to me he comes accross as more balanced than most just because he is willing to listen, learn and move on to a new tool if the one he is uing in not working.

As the water bowl turns....I was hoping when I read this thread last night that it actually had some meaning or that there was in fact an "individual".

 Nope, just the normal US vs THEM again.....

Move on to something more positive

sillysally

Susan Clothier also thinks that training with a prong can be good, so if the all positive "camp" claims her, then they can't be all that close-minded.....

However, I tend to see the same people (many of whom have never even used the device), discounting it in the GL threads.... 

And I see some extreme posters singing praises about the GL ( could it be that the word"Gentle" is in it?), but going completely against the prong collar.

Hmm, so, if people are having a fine discussion about, say, leadership, then some anti-Millan folks come in and start attacking Millan, who was never even brought up till the interlopers arrived, then, in order for Millan fans to not be seen as divisive they should suffer the attacks and not be defensive? Gee, that sounds unfair! Millan himself wouldn't object to be held to a higher standard, but, still, I can't buy into blaming the defenders against tireless assaults.

I'll repeat, I actually do agree that being defensive does not tend to serve one's argument well, which is why I personally ignore a lot of stuff and don't bother to respond to it. But to argue that the defensiveness of people who enjoy Millan and his ideas is on par with the emotionalized, obsessive, attacking behavior of Millan hunters is really without merit for me.

Funny thing, people who rebut against attacks against Millan are often not even "followers".  They are just fair or open minded folks who enjoy learning stuff!  

Ixas_girl

Hmm, so, if people are having a fine discussion about, say, leadership, then some anti-Millan folks come in and start attacking Millan, who was never even brought up till the interlopers arrived, then, in order for Millan fans to not be seen as divisive they should suffer the attacks and not be defensive? Gee, that sounds unfair! Millan himself wouldn't object to be held to a higher standard, but, still, I can't buy into blaming the defenders against tireless assaults.

I'll repeat, I actually do agree that being defensive does not tend to serve one's argument well, which is why I personally ignore a lot of stuff and don't bother to respond to it. But to argue that the defensiveness of people who enjoy Millan and his ideas is on par with the emotionalized, obsessive, attacking behavior of Millan hunters is really without merit for me.

Funny thing, people who rebut against attacks against Millan are often not even "followers".  They are just fair or open minded folks who enjoy learning stuff!  

As in the past, behavior will be treated as it happens with each member, stiring the pot will also be dealt with as it happens...move on

lostcoyote

4ic: "So it's not about lacking morals, it's about being a little bit nasty because they don't like the guy."

 

that seems like that is really the bottom line when you come right down to the heart of the matter. since they don't like his techniques, then it becomes an automatic response in their psyche that they don't like him either.

Emph. added by me

With respect, no.  There are some things he does/did I don't agree with but I don't really give a fig about the man one way or another.

lostcoyote

with all due respect, i am referring to the "hard core" ceasar millan haters out there

Which happens to be sad that they do exist.....maybe, they pour so much of their positive attitude into their training.....that they have nothing positive left for the human race.....lol