Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

FourIsCompany

Why do people hate him so much and feel the need to attack him and put down his methods and anyone who uses them??? 

Kate, I've come to expect quality posts from you and I am certainly not disappointed! Excellent post! And thank you sincerely for taking the time and thought to answer.

I agree that CM has nothing special aside from his experience, personality and knowledge. I wonder how many CM supporters think he's got "something" the rest of us don't have? That's an angle I hadn't considered. Never occurred to me. The Dog Whisperer is a PR thing for sure. And he does say, "I am (dramatic pause) The Dog Whisperer..." I just don't give that any credence at all because for me, the substance of his message is by far, the important issue here. Not that he might "whisper" to dogs. I would wager that he has no idea that people are offended or turned off by the title of his show or his self-proclaimed "specialness".

Benedict

That may be true, but why make someone feel like that before they even start?

I can't speak for him, but I think he probably has no intention of "making" people feel that way. I put it in quotes because I don't believe a person can "make" someone feel some way. If people feel inadequate or ordinary, I think that's because that's how they feel. And they are responsible for their own feelings, just as we all are. But I do see your point.

Benedict

This makes the "war" harder to fight, because those who stand for what Cesar stands for (whether they have always held those views or whether they learned of CM and then came around to his way of thinking) have someone to rally around, to lift up as their ideal and say "this is the side we are on".  The +R movement don't have that to so much of a degree, which leads to the somewhat-but-not-entirely-logical conclusion that what the +R movement are defending is THEMSELVES.

That makes SO much sense! I totally understand that. AND I'm going to say that when I'm defending what I do with my dogs, I'm defending myself because Cesar is no where to be found. He's not going to come in here and defend me, And I wouldn't want him to. Because I'm still choosing the methods I choose and I am responsible. So, even though there is a figurehead, it's not helping me any when I'm "under attack" for choosing his methods.

Because I don't don't choose his methods because HE says they're right, I choose them because I feel they're right for me and my dogs. Just as any +R only person does. It's really not that different on either side of this aisle.

I don't think any of us here are so "devoted" to Cesar, the man, the Whisperer, that we'd do whatever he said! My God! We're not disciples. I don't think that's giving us enough credit. He IS just a figurehead. And he happens to have a TV show that reaches millions. I'm not impressed by that at all.

What impresses me is that his approach is something I "recognize" on a deeper level than step-by-step instructions. It's instinctual. It's "animalistic" and I really feel that. I was just talking with my husband about this and we were wondering what it is about people that makes them gravitate toward or be repelled by Mr. Millan. I know that Ixas is an artist. I am, too. I have a very HIGH creative need and I am virtually right-brained where my dogs are concerned. I CAN UNDERSTAND how people who are more left-brain oriented may not "Get" Cesar at all or be confused or bewildered about what people see in him. It's because he's instinctual and works with dogs from the same side of the brain as we do! (That's just a theory)

Benedict

I'm a "do what works, fix what's broke and fake the rest" kind of girl. 

Just for the record, so am I. I couldn't care less if anyone else is a Cesar fan or not. I have only "picked his approach" because it resonates with me and so far works great with my dogs. But I use +R whenever and wherever I "feel" it's right or will get me the results I want.

lostcoyote

 sounds to me that you need to do just what you feel is right for you. does your "soft" dog have any issues that need a fixin?

Apart from some nightly cat-patrolling, intermittent guardiness towards new dogs on her territory, and a bit of over-rambunctious play at the dog park, my soft dog is absolutely fine, thanks . Being part greyhound and ridgeback she just doesn't like harsh corrections, which is fine by me, because I don't like doing them! My previous trainer (who's training philosophy was dogs=wolves) tried to make me "bark" (read shout) at Pocket because she had freaked out and stopped listening during an outside agility/training session (a guy spraying weeds had scared her). I couldn't yell at her (although he demonstrated) and now I can't get a reliable down from her when we're not at home, and I'm pretty sure that's the reason why. Now I'm not comparing CM to him- I'm just trying to illustrate how much she shut-down from what my trainer though was a pretty moderate correction.

 The leash-snapping and neck "biting" by CM is not my thing. I completely agree that doggy corrections can appear vicious and harsh, but I'm of the opinion that dogs know that we're not dogs and so trying to discipline and behave like one is a bit silly, I think.

Vinia

Perhaps this is just my empirical behavioral scientist shining through.

Yes, I can see that aspect showing up more and more. Not you particularly, but like I said, the more "airy-fairy" among us   are are actually attracted to all this "projection of energy" and "calm-assertive" stuff. It's right-brained.

Vinia

My dog's a soft dog who can' t handle that stuff

I have 2 "soft dogs" that I would never subject to a finger "bite" or strong leash correction. It's not necessary and would certainly break their hearts! However, I have 2 HARD dogs (LOL) who respond very well to it, so I have used it on them. (One is my "favorite" dog!) It all depends on the circumstances.

No flaming here. Thanks for participating! 

Great post Denise m! Thanks for that insight. I think that is probably another reason that applies to some people.

FourIsCompany

I can't speak for him, but I think he probably has no intention of "making" people feel that way. I put it in quotes because I don't believe a person can "make" someone feel some way. If people feel inadequate or ordinary, I think that's because that's how they feel. And they are responsible for their own feelings, just as we all are. But I do see your point.

 

Agreed...but we live in a busy and less-than-ideal world.  Self-examination is not nearly as alluring as blaming someone else, which takes less time and is pretty much painless.

FourIsCompany

Because I don't don't choose his methods because HE says they're right, I choose them because I feel they're right for me and my dogs. Just as any +R only person does. It's really not that different on either side of this aisle.

I don't think any of us here are so "devoted" to Cesar, the man, the Whisperer, that we'd do whatever he said! My God! We're not disciples. I don't think that's giving us enough credit. He IS just a figurehead. And he happens to have a TV show that reaches millions. I'm not impressed by that at all.

I am not for a second saying that the majority of Cesar fans are disciples who will blindly follow whatever he says, although in any group there will be extremists.  All I'm saying is that in the tit-for-tat this side/that side debate, those who hold the same ideals and follow the same methods as Cesar does have him as an example that everyone will have heard of.  That isn't the case for the +R movement, because frankly only people so into dogs that they spend hours on a net forum devoted to them will have even heard of Patricia McConnell or Karen Pryor.  

FourIsCompany

What impresses me is that his approach is something I "recognize" on a deeper level than step-by-step instructions. It's instinctual. It's "animalistic" and I really feel that. I was just talking with my husband about this and we were wondering what it is about people that makes them gravitate toward or be repelled by Mr. Millan. I know that Ixas is an artist. I am, too. I have a very HIGH creative need and I am virtually right-brained where my dogs are concerned. I CAN UNDERSTAND how people who are more left-brain oriented may not "Get" Cesar at all or be confused or bewildered about what people see in him. It's because he's instinctual and works with dogs from the same side of the brain as we do! (That's just a theory)

Hmm, interesting theory, but I'm an artist too.  I maintain that I know pretty much nothing about Cesar and am thus debating this from the theory side, but I have a general idea of his methods and haven't sought him out to find out more.  I might like what I see, but something tells me that my clicker-training self is happiest doing what I am doing now, without Cesar's influence.

I can't agree on the statement that CM supporters can hide behind CM.......in my own experience I have been attacked by an extreme +R poster claiming that I was a groupie, and that I needed to see the light.....never even reading or understanding what my method is.....I use a lot of reward, just not a clicker and treat at the time of training......but, because I did not entertain the idea of using a clicker, I was written off as a neck yanker and a person who possibly alpha rolls her dogs......at that point I was defending myself and the way I handle my dogs......I have been around dogs all my life, and I am in my 30's .....yes, it was possible to train dogs before Cesar ever rolled into town......lol

I must not have been very articulate this time.

I'm not saying that CM supporters can hide behind CM - we are, and forever will be, responsible for our own actions.  What I am saying is that when the methods that CM advocates get "attacked", it is CM himself who is really in the hotseat and it is easy for the attackers to forget that there is a huge group who stand for those same things - as in my Bush/Republicans example.  In attacking the figurehead and forgetting the rest of the group, the idea that each member of that group is a free-thinking individual seems to get lost in the shuffle.  People may love CM but NOT employ the things he does that don't resonate with them - and yet, the minute someone hears that someone else is a CM supporter, it is assumed that the beliefs of that CM supporter must be EXACTLY those of CM, and thus the supporter is deserving of the same scorn as CM himself.  And yes, CM is deserving of scorn not because he has necessarily done anything wrong, but because he has put himself into a position where facing criticism is part and parcel of his success. 

This is an argument for shades of grey.  Snownose, if I may use you as an example - you like CM but you employ other methods too.  A hardcore vocal +R CM hater is only going to see that first part...that you like CM and therefore everything you do must be tainted.
I know that's not the case, you know that's not the case...but we create these little boxes of belief for ourselves about what is right, and it is so hard to see outside them, and realise that 3-dimensional people are much more complex than just "this is right, that is wrong". 
 

It is the nature of people with strong personalites - as I assume CM must have - to cause division.  THAT is why there is a this side/that side to him...because strong personalities attract similar people...and so CM supporters, especially the ones here, are all strong and eloquent people who have more than 2 brain cells to string together.  That in itself is threatening, because isn't it so much easier to discount someone else's beliefs if they are an idiot?  Lacking idiots, each side has to give some credence to the thought that the other side just might be onto something.

Good point.......you have earned two winks....lol

LOL I will see your two winks and raise you a ...it's been a slice, folks, but it's midnight and I am heading to bed.

lostcoyote

... i tend to think that dogs don't really rationalize us as being human to that extent --- to the extent of describing us as human, a squirrel as a squirrel.... etc..... i do tend to think that they relate to other critters as energy beings which come in all kinds of shapes and forms.... some of them are worth a chase while others are worth bonding to while still others are worth barking at......... but the word i am using here is twofold: energy & being...... i have seen dogs chase after a human and have seen them chase after a squirrel and maybe, in this case, the human being chased is on par with the squirrel being chased.

I agree with you to an extent- I think it is a highly unlikely that dogs have a complete understanding of us as "humans", just like dogs most likely don't see cats as "cats" but rather a member of the category "small furry things that are good for chasing". What I find vague and difficult to comprehend is the whole energy-beings thing.

If you are correct, then would it be true that,  purely hypothetically, if a squirrel were to start leash-popping and "tsst"-neck poking a dog, the dog would start looking to it as a leader? If all animals/non-dogs are seen and related to as "energy beings", then surely if the energy and actions were the same, then the result would be the same?

Posturing and size has a big influence on how an animal sees a being in charge......cats are known to bow their backs and and have the hair stick up just to look bigger, and be more formidable.....

snownose

cats are known to bow their backs and and have the hair stick up just to look bigger, and be more formidable.....

That reminds me of my favorite bit of miscommunication. When Jade wants to pick a fight and challenge, she will present her side and arch her back to look bigger. What Shadow sees is her presenting her side which, to him, is a sign of non-confrontation, as in, "I'm no threat to you." So he yawns and lays down. And it's happened more than once with the same results.