Cesar Millan New Book Part 1 and 2 Discussion!!!

hi ron, i am sorry to hear your childhood was that brutal........ do you believe there is a difference between a correction and a punishment?

ron2

Suffice it to say that I disagree with CM's analogy of corrections on humans.

 

Ron it sounds as if the method applied to you as a child was unbalanced. Corrections should always be combined with rewards, if my son works hard and does his homework he is allowed to watch TV or play video games, when the video games interfere with the proper execution of his home work he loses the right to play them. At the same time if he brings home a good combination of A's and B's then he can have a new video game (which you must always follow through and buy).

 Chores must be done daily and done correctly but the reward for doing them is pocket money. Telling my son that he must do "this" and "that" and if he does correctly and well I will by him "something", and then not buying the something I promised is IMO an incorrect use of corrections.

 What you received was punishment, harshness and degradation. That is terrible and I am sorry you suffered it, but that is not what Cesar is talking about in his book.

lostcoyote

do you believe there is a difference between a correction and a punishment

For humans, it's an easy distinction. For example, if I say that giving a treat is +P and someone says no, it's +R, then they have corrected me. If someone hits me and draws blood, that is punishment.

Do you have a distinction between correction and punishment for a dog?

When I was 10, my mother gave me her folk guitar. If I had done the chores and my homework, then I could play. Unless Billy Graham was on. One time, I didn't want to watch him and she took away my guitar for 3 months. Is that a correction or punishment. What is your distinction?

What do you do if your kid doesn't mind and doesn't care about the rules?

Correction happens at the time of misbehavior......and it can't go on for hours, the animal would never understand why the handler/owner is going on about a problem.....I usually correct with a marker noise, and then it's back to business as usual.......dogs realize quickly what upsets the owner/handler .......but, also........as quickly as the correction happened it is over.....

Too bad I wasn't raised like a dog.

Ron2: "For example, if I say that giving a treat is +P and someone says no, it's +R, then they have corrected me."

i also think that if we were to discuss the difference between a corection and a punishment, we would have to take one specific case so that we are not crossing apples with oranges -- example:

you are about to touch something that is really hot and i am standing next to you

1) i grab your hand and move it away from the hot object and say "watch out, that metal plate is really hot and you could have burned yourself - i just finished welding it 5 minutes ago and it hasn't cooled down quite yet."

2) i grab your hand and throw it back and yell at you "you stupid idiot, i just welded that sucker up and you're gonna burn yourself. don't you see anything that's going on around here."

number 1's a correction in my view. it stems from my genuine concern about your safety and i also wish to educate you

number 2's a punishment. it's a quick reaction stemming from my negative energy such as anger or inpatience.

that's how i primarily see the difference.

ron2

When I was 10, my mother gave me her folk guitar. If I had done the chores and my homework, then I could play. Unless Billy Graham was on. One time, I didn't want to watch him and she took away my guitar for 3 months. Is that a correction or punishment. What is your distinction?

What do you do if your kid doesn't mind and doesn't care about the rules?

 in my mind this is punishment. It is unreasonable, the degree of loss is far more than the offense committed. The "punishment" should fit the crime so to speak.

  Had I been your mother I think that taking it for the evening would have been sufficient. Also when correcting kids there must be given a clear line and clear understanding of the expectation. In your example it would have been this. "Ron I am giving you my guitar, you must always do your homework and chores before playing and I expect you to always be with the family when Billy is on but otherwise you may play it when you wish." Now with that must come the consequences of not heeding the rules, so in your case that would be "Ron, if you fail to do your chores or the homework, or if you pitch a fit about watching Billy you will lose your guitar for the rest of that evening, now if your offense if really bad, like you lie about doing your homework then you will lose the guitar for three days. Do you understand the rules? The consequences? Do you have any questions? Do you think this is a fair deal?"

 When presented in this fashion most kids take responsibilty for their actions and take the "punishment" without resentment. At least my two always have.

lostcoyote

good story about the air conditioner guys and how your dogs mirrored your response.....all in the blink of an eye, they react to energy..... in the other thread that "blew up" today, i wrote about how i had used a ski pole to get my dogs to walk behind me. the pole was like an extention to my arm and during the initial 5 minutes of saler trying to get around me, every time i swung the pole, i swear, there was more communication going on between the eye to eye contact than the ski pole being there. the pole was acting as the no crossing line but my eye contact and pointing my arm and pole was really what was telling him that i was serious... and the eye contact - that energy projection/communication is like instantaneous.... i am now at page 72...... in the 2'cd chapter, he speaks about corrections vs. punishment - a topic that i started over at dog stir that got shut down - lol - go figure.... anyway, i'd like to make some postings in chapter 2 that are best illustrated by direct quoting - but i think i'd have to paraphrase to stay within moderator compliance... or maybe i'll just post the pages so others can read it without me spoiling it (pages 44, 51-52 has some juicy stuff in it that's sure to tick off the +R camp.)

I remember this post about your ski pole.  I actually thought it was a good idea.  I'm trying to find something around the house to use, if possible.  I didn't read C.M.'s first book, but so far, I'm liking what I hear about the 2nd.  I read a little bit of the book on line, thru Borders and it sounds interesting.  I was wondering if any of you have any other recommendations of C.M's books, videos, etc. you think I might enjoy.  I love the show, and although he says not to try these at home, we have and frankly his methods work pretty well.  :)

ron2

Too bad I wasn't raised like a dog.

Sounds like something CM would say.  LOL

Janet808, the guy to contact would be espencer.....he has an arsenal of links....lol

hi janet, i am glad you likes the pole idea. that topic went downhill and i ended up deleting all of my posts cuz i couldn't figure out who made the "blatent attacks" as the moderator said. i did not know whether it was the "clickety-clack" wisecrack or something DPU stated and we were both scratching our heads because the moderator was vague as to what needed to be deleted.... so i just deleted all of mine - lol

there is a link on here under "trainers, techniques" section which has a video thread full of national geographic videos. they might be work scanning through. also, you can find some video clips here:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/video/index.html

click on "browse by program

click "dog whisperer"

Janet808

Sounds like something CM would say.  LOL

Actually, I could imagine him saying that, too.

What he does have is that ineffable something that attracts people to him. Another post had a link to someone's description of his actions as a dance. It was a rather accurate description and how, consciously or subconciously, he adjusts his stance and position to fit each moment. And I hope that others who read his book will go on to read other authors and be inspired to research more. I also know that most people here are well-read, erudite, even. So, I wasn't suggesting that anyone here hasn't read enough. But we do have a nation of people that may be too busy or unmotivated to read more and that for some out there, it's easier to watch a show. And it can be easier to watch it being done. That's why many go to training classes.

dgriego

When presented in this fashion most kids take responsibilty for their actions and take the "punishment" without resentment. At least my two always have

And it sounds like you're an excellent parent and I don't say that to sweet-talk you.

FWIW, I never doubted that my mother loved us. She sacrificed much for our well-being. And after a few step-fathers turned out not to work out so well, she resolved to stay out of the whole dating scene, rather than disrupt our lives further. She would go without new clothes. She would work 12 and 14 hours a day. And she did instill values.

And it was also a different world then. Punishment was meant to stop a thing the first time. And level and intensity could always increase. And there were good times, too. Laughs, love, good memories. But punishment was swift, stern, and everlasting.

So, it's possible that I may or may not be objective enough to discuss punishment and correction especially as related to humans, given my upbringing. And our mom was easier on us than her upbringing. Her grandmother would beat her head against the wall, causing memory loss.

Ron, what you have described is not a correction in a normal sense....IT IS ABUSE.....I am sorry you had to grow up the way you did, and I am sorry for what your mom went through.