Cesar Millan New Book Part 1 and 2 Discussion!!!

    • Gold Top Dog

    lostcoyote

     emphasis on Mother Nature - you don't find clickers there.

     

    At the beginning of chapter 2 or 3 has a quote about that dogs dont bargain changing one bone for another 

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    At the beginning of chapter 2 or 3 has a quote about that dogs dont bargain changing one bone for another 

     

     

     He talks about using treats to redirect bad behaviour, dog growls at another dog and is given a treat to distract him, dog is on sofa growls at owner and  owner throws treats to get dog off sofa, and says the treats are temporarly redirecting the behavour but are not addressing the state of mind that was causing the behavour in the first place.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm so far behind you all and I don't really want to read the other posts till I'm finished with the first part. But I wanted to mention the balance thing he talks about in the very beginning.

    We humans are so intellectual. Many are out of balance because we've lost touch with the instinctual side of our being. The human animal. I think for me, one reason Cesar appeals so much to me is that a lot of work that he does with dogs is on an instinctual level. He doesn't have a "formula" to "fix" the dog before he goes in, or step-by-step instructions to deal with certain behaviors. He has to "feel" the energy and assess the situation on-site before he decides what's going to be the best way to go about dealing with the issues presented. And I get the feeling that many times, he doesn't even know what he's going to do from one moment to the next. He doesn't have it planned out in steps, he just "feels his way" through the situation.

    I think the fact that he's so in touch with his instinctual animal is the reason he's a dog whisperer.

    And of course the other quadrants are emotional and spiritual. They ALL work together. But I find it interesting that he didn't include physical in there. I think that's an important part of the human (as well as canine) animal. I believe that the physical projects the other quadrants, and perhaps that's why it's not mentioned, but I would have liked for that to be the fifth aspect of a complete animal. A pentagram, perhaps? Wink

    The physical displays the other 4. But I think there's more to it than that. Any thoughts on that?   

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    We humans are so intellectual. Many are out of balance because we've lost touch with the instinctual side of our being. The human animal. I think for me, one reason Cesar appeals so much to me is that a lot of work that he does with dogs is on an instinctual level. He doesn't have a "formula" to "fix" the dog before he goes in, or step-by-step instructions to deal with certain behaviors. He has to "feel" the energy and assess the situation on-site before he decides what's going to be the best way to go about dealing with the issues presented. And I get the feeling that many times, he doesn't even know what he's going to do from one moment to the next. He doesn't have it planned out in steps, he just "feels his way" through the situation.

     

     He even mentions that he does not like to have a lot of information on the dog prior to his visit. His wife and his assistants handle the interviews and only in the most extreme cases (aggression) do they inform him in advance what the dogs problem is. He says that even in the extreme cases it is most often a heads up type warning that they give him. He asseses the humans and the dog in that first meeting.

     What is really weird (and maybe it is just me) is that I do not see that much difference in how he works and how some of the more well known(positive only) trainers work when asseseing a dog. It is reading the dog and trying to understand from a dog's perspective what is going on. And then it is communicating to the dog in a manner he will better understand. The methods used differ but that initial assessment is not that different.

    • Gold Top Dog

    mind - body - spirit

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    dgriego

     "Creating respect is not the same thing as creating intimidation."

     

    Thats very true, sometimes i wonder if Cesar has been reading all the threads on idog because a lot of people who are against these techniques could have their questions answered in his book 

     

    ROFLOL! Really? Ya think? (wink-wink, nudge-nudge).

    I'm enjoying the book...

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm enjoying reading this so far. I'm interested to know more of how he defines the "positive only" people?  Is there any other information you can share on this topic? More spefically in response to this quote:

     

    The issue that many in the "positive only" school of behavior seem to have with me is that they believe I should be using treats and clickers to redirect some of the behaviors I choose to correct with energy, body language, eye contact, and physical touch

     The reason I address this is because of the misconception that people who have chosen to use clickers in their teachings, ONLY use clickers and nothing more. I think this is a common misconception developed by people who don't fully understand the philosophy of some of the modern (what are considered "positive" I suppose) dog experts. A clicker is only one part of a person working with a dog. One tool. It is used for what we term "operant" behaviours, in other words, "trick training". Such as sit, or kennel training, or roll over, or walk on a leash. But when it comes to working on behaviour problems, there are so many parts of daily living and working with behaviour issues that have nothing to do with a clicker either! You can't use a clicker for desensitization, or counter conditioning, or habituation work. At least not the classical conditioning part. My Gaci is likely one of the most clicker-savvy dogs I have met face to face. I have taught her more things than I've ever taught any other dog. But a clicker will not solve her fear of people. It will not solve her fear of dogs. It did not solve her resource guarding issue.

    A clicker is only one tool that people use, and I think that any of the modern experts will attest to that as well. A clicker is used to teach operant behaviours. You can HELP dogs with behaviour issues with the use of a clicker - for instance, teaching a "Go touch" exercise, or teaching a dog to go to its kennel on cue for when you have visitors. But a clicker is NOT used to battle phobias, or SA, or aggression, or the like. A clicker CAN be used to teach a dog how to use calming signals if they are socially inept animals, it can be used to teach a dog "proper greeting behaviour" to avert any possibilities of aggression occurring, but it cannot on its own change the underlying emotions the dog is experiencing.

    On a personal level, a clicker is only one part of my life with dogs. I also use personal space, proximity in my work with dogs.  I use my body - space, balance, movement or lack of, posture, to communicate with all my guys. I have used my body to block something I don't want my dogs to do, if I can't re-direct it immediately or to simply break their focus on something. I don't move my dogs with my body, I don't push against my dogs away, but just insert my body into a space so they aren't occupying it. I've taught dogs to move forward or backwards simply by how I shift my balance back and forth.

     I also use a lot of non-food rewards. Toys, tug games, freedom to run, ability to do what they want, all are non-food rewards. One dog I'm teaching right now for conformation shows, I'm usually virtually ONLY toys, as he lives for his toys. For some dogs, talking about behaviour issues as opposed to "just tricks", just getting away from a feared thing, can be used as a reward in behaviour modification. I use touch with my guys as well. The entire concept of "touch" is HUGE with me. I use relaxing massage with amazing success, I teach all my guys how to be handled, I teach them not to be perturbed by unexpected gestures (in case of children, old people, people will exagerrated movements, etc) and touches. I don't force my dogs to "accept" handling, but rather teach them to enjoy handling. Sometimes it's through the use of treats, yes, as food is a primary reinforcer that is of crucial importance to all living animals, since it's necessary for survival. Food is used amazingly, across species (even in humans) to change behaviour. So it is undoubtedly a big part of what I do. But not the only part. I don't believe in using flooding, ever with dogs. I believe in allowing the dog to decide how we progress, rather than pushing the dog to progress.

    In terms of energy, I'm not sure I will ever grasp Milan's personal idea of what energy is, because it's so abstract and fluid that I fully believe that every person on this site will have a different idea of energy. But if I was going to talk about "energy", in a way that makes sense to ME, is that I use energy a lot in working with dogs too. Taking Gaci as another example, I can work my own energy to how I want my dog to feel. If I want to work relaxation, and calm, I will do so with language and voice - a quiet, neutral tone, with slowly drawn out words ("eeeassssyyyyy" rather than "easy!";). I will use touch, in the form of long, slow strokes, or some of the T-touch techniques that I know. I will use breathing exercises myself to slow my own pace (Paul Owens does a great job explaining this). I will use slow, controlled movements rather than quick jittery ones. It's all about the connection between myself and my dogs at any given moment. If I want to work in a more upbeat, excitatory manner, I'll shift my energies to using a higher-pitched voice, quicker sounding of words. I'll use faster motions, I'll act in a much more active manner, and use my body in such as way as to entice action to the dog with invitiational movements.

    I'm sure if you talked with any professional in the field, such as Dunbar, or Clothier, or McConnell, or Pryor, or Miller, Trish King, Rugaas, etc, they would tell you much the same thing as anyone else. Of course a clicker only gets you so far, the philosophy that a lot of us who USE clickers believe in goes much further, and much deeper than that. Hopefully this will shed a tiny bit of light on that misconception.

    Anyhow, back to the discussion, would anyone be interested in sharing more of Milan's ideas about "positive people" or "believe I should be using treats and clickers to redirect some of the behaviors I choose to correct with energy, body language, eye contact, and physical touch"? While I see that he does appear to be growing since his first endeavours into the public spotlight, I still wonder if he has misconceptions about how this philosophy works? Going by just that paragraph there appears to be very obvious misconceptions, so I'm just curious if he discusses his current knowledge of that area in more detail? Smile I'm genuinely interested here, I never come with hidden agendas or ulterior motives.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    KM: "I'm interested to know more of how he defines the "positive only" people?  Is there any other information you can share on this topic?"

     

    maybe i can post a quote out of pages 51-52 without getting into trouble?

    book quotations are OK to use as long as i give full credit to the author, yes? i did that on page 41 to which you are referencing.

     

    to answer your question, i am not sure if he fully defines a "positive only" person. he defines the operants and i think he defines a "positive only" as one who only gives rewards and never punishments. he also goes on to say that he dislikes the word, punishment and that there is a HUGE difference between the word, punishment, and the word, correction.

     

    anyway, i don't have an answer for you yet.

     

     

    btw,

    how did you get your dog to move through 1) her fear of people 2) her fear of other dogs and 3) her resource guarding? you stated that a clicker would never solve these so if you did work these issues out, what technique(s) did you use to fully eliminate these behaviors?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan

    I'm enjoying reading this so far. I'm interested to know more of how he defines the "positive only" people?  Is there any other information you can share on this topic? More spefically in response to this quote:

     

    The issue that many in the "positive only" school of behavior seem to have with me is that they believe I should be using treats and clickers to redirect some of the behaviors I choose to correct with energy, body language, eye contact, and physical touch

     

    Kim he does not really define "positive only" specifically but I believe from reading the entire chapter that he is referring to those who disagree with any type of correction such as a leash correction, a chhhhhhh sound or a leg bump or any type of physical touch. He seems to have a high respect for clicker trainers and even worked with one that helped him train the Dalmatian firehouse dog. The gentlemen he worked with is someone who has trained several movie animals. He also states that he uses treats, and recommends using treats in his rehabilitating process, but since he does not consider himself a dog trainer he does not use clickers.He also clearly defines the difference in his treat approach saying that he disagrees (my word not his and my wording on the hotdog part) with tossing hotdogs to a dog that is laying on the couch and refusing to allow the owner to sit.

     The one quote that I posted (referenced above) is the only place where I say him use the phrase “positive only” people.

    • Gold Top Dog

    lostcoyote

    btw,

    how did you get your dog to move through 1) her fear of people 2) her fear of other dogs and 3) her resource guarding? you stated that a clicker would never solve these so if you did work these issues out, what technique(s) did you use to fully eliminate these behaviors?

    Wow, those are big questions, especially ones to be able to answer in one sitting. I'll do a simplified version as I'd never be able to write exactly about everything that I've done.

    Firstly, I'll say that I had her for her entire life. So I have her entire history to look back on, knowing that there was no "past" that kept cropping up that I don't know about. I like to think that it wasn't genetic, since she was of our family's breeding, and because there was absolutely no indication we would have produced a dog like her, going by her sire/dam/previous litters/other relatives, however she grew up in a great home so I have to believe there could have been a genetic component. On another note, her dam died when she was born (during a c-section), so her litter was raised part-time with a surrogate mother. Also, because the litter did not get the colostrum at birth, the entire litter developed a severe respiratory infection at just a few days old, and put the pups at a lot of undue stress. I'm a person who is very much in tune with the neonatal and juvenile development of puppies and I sincerely feel these also had a strong effect in contributing to how she turned out.

    In terms of her problems, they really started to manifest when she was an adolescent. I started noticing little issues, how she found direct eye contact (even from family members) quite aversive, her increasing fears of strangers as she aged. One time when she was young I handed her over to my friend in the car and she proceeded to urinate all over her, from fear. It was at that point that I began our work together.

    To illustrate the problem - she could not remain in the same room, or really even yard, with strange people without flipping out. She would bark, back up, ears back, and stare at them, not letting them out of her sight, but petrified of going near them or them going near her. Her anxiety was unbelievable. To start, I clipped a leash on her and had her by my side the entire time anybody was in the home. We started out in a separate room and I would reward her heavily for being attentive to me and not barking when she heard people in another room. Eventually she got to the point where she was excited to hear strange voices, so I knew it was time to go to the next step. We slowly worked our way into being in the same room as strangers, still on leash, at the opposite end of the room. People were instructed to ignore her completely and pretend she wasn't there. I rewarded her for calm behaviour, and re-directed her to do some of her favorite fun tricks. Once she became relatively comfortable doing that, I took off her leash. I continued to keep her attention and keep her otherwise occupied, but I began slowly allowing her to approach other people - if she chose to do so. I kept people ignoring her (I selected my people carefully so that we wouldn't have to back up if they frightened her) completely at that time. Eventually I loaded people with treats and if she approached them, they were to just hold treats in their hands, without interacting with her in any other way. This way, over time, she actually learned that people = treats. She quickly began seeking people out to get that lovely reward. Over time I had people slowly start to interact with her, in subtle ways. To talk to her while not looking at her, to look at her while glancing away, etc. She will take treats from anybody and everybody now. She jumped up on the couch to lick one person's face for the first time about a year ago. She seeks out people, even though she doesn't allow much touch from people.

    If you came to our house now, this is sort of what you'd expect: barking (we've got 14 dogs, so they all bark at first). Most times you wouldn't know right away that she WAS afraid of people. She'll run around like the others, tail wagging, she'll jump up against your leg, etc. It's when you actually begin interacting with her, one on one, that you'd know. If you reached out to her, she'd still back away most times (she has let 6 people to date rub her chest/chin/butt area with her own consent). If you pushed it, or if you stared at her, she would likely bark and back away, but still wagging her tail. She'll take treats from you, jump up against your lap for them even, and will actively interact with you, even though she's still not trusting of you. If you're calm, she'll approach you more on her own. When my step-uncle stayed for Christmas for four days, she really came to, well, almost like him. She always seeked him out for sniffs and soft talk, she'd jump up against his leg just to check him out, and because he was a great sport he didn't frighten her. By the time he left he had been able to actually touch her and interact with her in a pretty normal manner.

    Will she ever fully trust strangers? Not likely, it's in her personality. Can I help her adjust better and see more improvement? I'm confident that we can. That's the joy of desensitization and counter conditioning, you are able, even WITH genetics (but within its limitations as well) change behaviour quite drastically. The amount I've watched her grow has taken my breath away. People who have known her since she was a baby are amazed at how far she's come.

    It was not a quick fix, at all, and it'll be a lifelong learning journey, but I would not have done it any other way. She has grown, of her own choice and doing, and to see her blossom was just amazing. It can bring tears to my eyes if I think about it long enough.

    The dog issue is still ongoing. Again, it's in her personality, and due to her fear of strangers working around strange dogs hasn't gotten as much work as with people. She'll accept any new dog into the household, so it's not like she can't "get used to" other dogs, but strange dogs at, say, the vet, we manage for the most part. If there's only one dog, then we'll work at a distance, but I am very careful how we interact.

    Her resource guarding issue we nipped pretty early before it turned into anything very serious. For a long time I did only manage it, until I was able to work on it directly. Once I did, it was quite easy to fix. I did a write-up on it here just recently, I'll try to find you the link to it to save typing again.

    Keep in mind, this is a girl who is naturally anxious. At one point she was on clomipramine for about 5 months because she had developed obsessive-compulsive tendencies. She would take digging fits where she would dig as though her life depended on it. It wasn't just a fun "make your bed" digging, it was an anxious, whining, dig whereever she could digging - on the couch, the hardwood floor, under chairs, under the bed, wherever she was she felt the need to dig. She would have whale eye, be panting herself silly. At that time I couldn't distract her, and it required her taking a medicine that could calm her enough to focus. It was actually then that I found clicker work, and it's clicker work that actually helped fixed it. It was allowing her to take control of her own learning, it totally and completely boosted her confidence in herself. Within a month and a half of starting clicker work, we weaned off the medication and she hasn't needed it since.

    When she had surgery for her tucked vulva, it required 47 stitches in a half-moon between her vulva and her anus. She required an elizabethan collar for ten days while it healed. Her anxiety again came back at that time, and she actually started digging fits again. The vet was discussing giving her some medication to help her through it, but I passed it up and worked her through it. Between T-Touch, distracting toys (Kongs/bully sticks), and clicker work she got over her anxiety in a couple of days.

    This is a girl for whom a simple NRM is very aversive. An "ah ah" or "no" in teaching will shut her down. Like I said, a really stange gal.

    We've got another girl here who has trust issues, although not nearly to that degree, and I've been working with her in much the same way. She's shown a lot of improvement. She's been to several clicker classes, a Rally obedience class, a Rally workshop, various puppy walks, etc.  She has even competed in a couple of obedience trials and rally matches. So she's far ahead of Gaci, but she's got a different style of fear. It's a quieter fear.  And before anyone asks, on the offchance there was a genetic component involved, neither of these girls have been or will be bred. We would never take the risk of reproducing that type of personality. I am considering getting my mother to sign over the papers to put her in my name and keep her and continue working with her, we've developed a very special bond together.

    Anyhow, I think that's it in a nutshell....a really large nutshell. :-P But discussing the working of behaviour problems isn't something that you do in a small sentence or two, so I hope you've kept on until this point.

    • Gold Top Dog
    km: so I hope you've kept on until this point. yes and thank you. that was quite a writeup. it is interesting to note that you said the anxiety over people built up slowly. i wonder if it was just an accumulation of people staring at her over time during her adolescence that built it up? i will read through parts of chapter 2 again and see if i can find anything that answeres your question.
    • Gold Top Dog
    okay kim, i think i found his definition.... but it will probably cause you to ask for another definition......... take a look back at the entire page 44 quote that i posted on page 1 of this thread....... the first sentence reads, quote "Many animal professionals who say thay disagree with (what they perceive to be) my techniques follow the "rewards-only" trend of dog training - ..."........... and then later on, he refers to these "rewards only" folks as "positive only" school.......... so he probably is saying that in his mind, positive only means rewards only.
    • Gold Top Dog

    lostcoyote
    km: so I hope you've kept on until this point. yes and thank you. that was quite a writeup. it is interesting to note that you said the anxiety over people built up slowly. i wonder if it was just an accumulation of people staring at her over time during her adolescence that built it up?

    I noticed the anxiety built up over time. I can't say whether it was just because it wasn't dealt with earlier, or if it simply was something that developed with maturity. If I had have known then what I know now, I don't know how much better I could have made the situation, although I'm sure I could have made it better. I know so much more now than I did when I started, I think that's also why I didn't wait to work with Shimmer on her issues (the other gal I mentioned). And why it had such a different effect. She's only ten months old, so I had a lot of time to work on her issues without letting them fester. As I said she's been everywhere, and has had lots of exposure and work, so she's on a quicker track than my dear Gaci was. 

    Staring was, and is, still a big part of it for Gaci. As we humans know, eye contact with each other is quite natural, and to not look at other people can seem disrespectful. People unfortunately attribute this to dogs as well, and it's human nature to look into a dog's eyes when you interact with it. And of course, in terms of fear, we all know that people tend to STARE at what bothers them, so it can make matters worse. Thankfully the people I've gotten to help are at least good listeners, if not dog-knowledgeable. The best people I've ever had here to help were those who understood dogs and understood when I asked them not to look at her directly. I remember one girl, who got a puppy from us last year, who was very wise about dogs. She came in and sat on the floor, legs crossed. She did not look at Gaci at all. She would talk to her quietly, and hold her hand out, and give her treats, but she did not look at her at all. In fact she actually used calming signals and averted her eyes. Gaci REALLY noticed this, to the point that the less she looked at her, the more Gaci became interested. It got to the point where Gaci was leaning up against her shoulder and sniffing her ears, licking her hands, actively engaging with her, because she was so relaxed. You could almost see the surprise in Gaci's reaction: "My gosh, she's not staring! Look ma, she's not staring! I like her!" And she ran around her in circles, tail wagging, trying to interact with her in that manner.

    I've worked a lot with her with eye contact with me. This is a dog that I taught "Watch me" to, for many reasons. She now has no problems whatsoever looking at me, and I could stare at her all day long. She's still sensitive to it with my parents, not that they do it on purpose, but she let's them know if they are being a little too "eye-oriented". One of our next goals in behaviour mod is to work with eye contact with some experienced strangers. I'm trying to "hire" a couple of people I know who are into dogs in the future (one is the behaviourist from the vet college, one is a clicker trainer, one is a lady who has problem dogs herself, one is a normal pet owner but who understands dogs) to help me with this, before venturing on to do it with random strangers. I want to pair eye contact with happy feelings and fun, and see how much that changes her behaviour. All in time though.

    Anyhow, I'll let the discussion get back to the book. Smile You have to be careful when asking about Gaci's history, I could write a book on her alone...lol.

    • Gold Top Dog
    to spur the topic further.... CM goes on to say in chapter 2, pages 51-52.... quote:
    "Positive reinforcement holds great power for changing the behavior of both humans and animals, and is usually in the form of "discipline" people feel most comfortable about using. Positive reinforcement makes both object and subject feel good - but it is important that it's applied within limits. Take this example from the human world that Dr. Clearman shared with me. If her son comes home from school with a painting and she says "That's a beautiful painting; you did a good job trying to show those palm trees. Those are hard to do," that's a good, limited use of positive reinforcement. It's positive FEEDBACK - and it's powerful. However, if every day he brings home a painting and she fawns over every one saying, "That's brilliant! You're the best little boy in the world! You're a genius! That's fabulous! Everything you do is perfect!", how much impact is her praise going to have when she really needs to use it? How does she get him to believe her when she tries to encourage him after he's actually failed at something? Since she is always rewarding him no matter what he does, she has lost credibility. Too much positive reinforcement can create the appearance of weakness in the one giving praise - or the treats, or the applause, or whatever that reward might be........I have seen this kind of response in dogs that have never achieved total respect for their owners but are constantly being reinforced with treats for practically every behavior they do. The owner uses food treats for conditioning the dog to sit and stay, but also in situations where the cause and effect for the dog is often unclear. If dog is growling at another dog, the owner will redirect the behavior with treats. If the dog is chewing on something, the owner will offer treats to give him something else to chew on. If the dog is on a sofa, the owner will throw treats on the ground so the dog gets off the sofa. The problem is, the owner may have temporarily redirected the behavior, but he hasn't addressed the state of the mind that was causing the behavior in the first place. He hasn't earned the dog's respect by letting her know through energy and body language that no, it's not okay with me that you sit on this couch. He's also "numbing" the dog to the reinforcement method, making it ultimately less effective - and he may also actually be nuturing the dog's bad behavior at the same time! I wouldn't be surprised if many of these dogs go right back to growling, chewing, or jumping right back up on the sofa as all the treats are eaten. Like the mother whose words lose their power because she praises her child constantly no matter what he does, the treats lose their meaning because they are not seen by the dog as directly connected with the unwanted behvior."
    well, i am not sure if it is quite correct to compare humans and dogs in this fashion because humans can rationalize while dogs can not..... and he does state in his books that dogs can not rationalize............ also, i think that he is speaking to the general public and not to dog trainers per se who actually know what they aredoing with positive reinforcement...........comments welcome.
    • Gold Top Dog

    lostcoyote
    ...........comments welcome.

     

    Alrighty then.

    When I brought home a C, it should have been an A. When I brought home a B, it should have been an A. When I brought home an A-, it should have been an A+. My grandparents said that if I could get at least 5 B's, they would buy me the guitar and amp that I wanted. So, I got 5 B's and an A. And no guitar or amp. Even my mom thought that was wrong and didn't have a problem with me spending my savings to get those things I had worked for. So, to reiterate, I received constant correction. Then offered a reward, which I worked hard for and did not get. And had to pay for it myself. When I was 13, and busy with school work and doing chores at home while our mom worked 14 hours a day, our step-grandfather's birthday had slipped by us. And we had no money to get him a present. While visiting the grandparents, my grandmother  spent 6.5 hours on the clock (not an exaggeration) telling me what a low piece of crap I was for not getting step-grandpa a present and that I could merely hope to be the dirt beneath a worm some day.

    When I was 7, I got in trouble for playing in the dirt, as 7-year-olds are prone to do. My step-father, a solidly built man, Boiler Tech 2c on the USS Ogden, gave me 20 lashes. Then gave me another 20 when I answered if I thought I might do that again and knowing I was a kid, I answered yes sir, probably so. I was wearing cotton underwear and dungarees (navy denim). I was blistered and peeling and black and blue. I've been smacked in the face more times than I can count, including when I was an infant and the smack drew blood from my lip. My life was filled with corrections and corporal punishment to the point of physical damage, psychological and emotional damage and unfullfilled promises of rewards. I have been beat with thick leather belts, wooden stirring spoons, peach tree branch (when I was 3 for playing on the hearth), hands, spankings on the bare butt, and several quick and well-timed right crosses (hook slap at the end of the trajectory). Not to mention hours and hours of haranguing descriptions as to my worthlessness.

    Suffice it to say that I disagree with CM's analogy of corrections on humans.