Of Doors and Dominance......

Lets not let this get out of hand please.  I ask that you respect your fellow members and treat them as you would wish to be treated, evne if you don't agree with them.

spiritdogs

They do as I ask in the hope that they will reap a reward that they want.  Because I consistently reward copiously for good behavior and allow poor behavior to extinguish, they defer to me pretty much automatically.

Yes, exactly. We all exercise control over our dogs, whether it's through rewards and "requesting" or boundary setting and "insisting", whether we watch the National Geographic Channel or buy lots of books from Dogwise, whether we use a clicker or a "tsst", none of us has advocated the right of dogs to choose to rush through the door and knock us off our feet. We've all simply explained the mechanics of how we understand that we achieve order. We've all advocated our favorite attitudes and techniques for deciding what happens, and when.

Every time a newbie comes on this forum describing how little control they have over their dog, the first suggestion many people make is to begin NILIF or grab a clicker - 2 very focused instruments for directing and controlling behavior! Whether or not we all want to be perceived as "dominant", we could certainly be accused of being control freaks ... LOL!

In the end, we all work to direct our dogs to display the appropriate behaviors at the appropriate times. I actually think that's rather a lot of common ground! Now, the details in how we achieve this common end should be fascinating and illuminating!
 

Ixas_girl

In the end, we all work to direct our dogs to display the appropriate behaviors at the appropriate times. I actually think that's rather a lot of common ground! Now, the details in how we achieve this common end should be fascinating and illuminating!
 

And I keep advocating that unless you are dealing with underlying condition such as a SA dog, that there should be a bginning and an end and the time span of changing the behavior should be short.  It quickly becomes apparent when one method doesn't work and you need to try another.  Why aggravate yourself and aggravate the dog with a method that is not working.  Don't know why my previous post was edited and frankly I don't care, but this is the same message.

DPU

dealing with underlying condition such as a SA dog

That brings up a great point. It's one thing to talk about dog behavior in terms of impulsiveness (dominance) and deference (submission), when the dog is psychologically healthy. When a dog suffers from particular conditions, the terms change a bit.

 My mother demonstrated to me this morning what Pyry thinks of insistence. She walked out and called his name and he backed up and barked at her, exactly as she said he would. If she tries to get close to him, he runs away. If she picks up the brush and calls him, he comes willingly because he loves to be brushed. Pyry won't do anything unless he can see what good it will bring him. Penny and Jill on the other hand will do things simply to make us happy with them and will do things to avoid our displeasure. Dogs like Pyry you have to work with all the time. Give him no choice and he rebels. Give him a reason to choose what you want him to and he can be very cooperative. He's a smart dog, though, and masterful at weighing up what's best for him. Some would call him dominant, I think. I call him independent.

corvus

 My mother demonstrated to me this morning what Pyry thinks of insistence. She walked out and called his name and he backed up and barked at her, exactly as she said he would. If she tries to get close to him, he runs away. If she picks up the brush and calls him, he comes willingly because he loves to be brushed. Pyry won't do anything unless he can see what good it will bring him. Penny and Jill on the other hand will do things simply to make us happy with them and will do things to avoid our displeasure. Dogs like Pyry you have to work with all the time. Give him no choice and he rebels. Give him a reason to choose what you want him to and he can be very cooperative. He's a smart dog, though, and masterful at weighing up what's best for him. Some would call him dominant, I think. I call him independent.

I wouldn't call your mother's dog dominant at all, more like stubborn, you call it independent, I expect my dogs to listen.....my dogs listen, when they are told to come, they come......but that doesn't change the fact that one of them is dominant, and another one, just a little over a year old is testing the waters .....

snownose

I wouldn't call your mother's dog dominant at all, more like stubborn, you call it independent,

An interesting question would then be, if you had a dog like Pyry who only came when motivated and you didn't feel like offering motivation, whether treat or attention, how would you then do it? Elevated tone of voice? Elevated volume? A correction? And would that work better and why?

You raise a good point about independent breeds. Sibes are notoriously independent, as you have said, yourself. That is why I use motivation. He's going to be independent, whether I nail him with a right cross or a stern tone. But, motivated by what he wants, he will do it. And, there are times when I get obedience without a treat or clicker in my hand. Because at some other time, he will get a treat, like a slot machine.

ron2

An interesting question would then be, if you had a dog like Pyry who only came when motivated and you didn't feel like offering motivation, whether treat or attention, how would you then do it? Elevated tone of voice? Elevated volume? A correction? And would that work better and why?

You raise a good point about independent breeds. Sibes are notoriously independent, as you have said, yourself. That is why I use motivation. He's going to be independent, whether I nail him with a right cross or a stern tone. But, motivated by what he wants, he will do it. And, there are times when I get obedience without a treat or clicker in my hand. Because at some other time, he will get a treat, like a slot machine.

OK....usually, I train my dogs to listen, but, let's just say I get a rescue that acts like Pyry.......easy.....I will make myself more interesting.....I will not accept the dog walking away, as a matter of fact, I will make it interesting to be with me and the pack, may that be with a higher pitched voice, combined with active ball playing, clapping hands....running away from the dog and then handing him a toy.....there are many options of the dog having fun.....but, here is the secret....multiple dogs at play, having fun always draws in the bystander, unless the dog has serious issues.....

So, if you had this situation and were not able to hand out treats, how would you handle this situation?

snownose

OK....usually, I train my dogs to listen, but, let's just say I get a rescue that acts like Pyry.......easy.....I will make myself more interesting.....I will not accept the dog walking away, as a matter of fact, I will make it interesting to be with me and the pack, may that be with a higher pitched voice, combined with active ball playing, clapping hands....running away from the dog and then handing him a toy.....there are many options of the dog having fun.....but, here is the secret....multiple dogs at play, having fun always draws in the bystander, unless the dog has serious issues.....

So, if you had this situation and were not able to hand out treats, how would you handle this situation

You just depicted +R. A reward is not always food, though I'm lucky to have a dog that responds to food. I have used other motivations, such as the ability to continue a desired activity, such as mouse-tracking or meeting another dog, or sniffing where another dog has been. And I first used that idea after Ed did a thread on play training. I often talk about treats because they work so well for me. But there are other motivations, such as inclusion in the group. Being the most fascinating one, whether that means you have thee good food, the good toy, or the great places to smell. And I think such a dog as Pyry would be happy in your scenario. That is, there was something in it for her and you led her to it.

ron2

You just depicted +R. A reward is not always food, though I'm lucky to have a dog that responds to food. I have used other motivations, such as the ability to continue a desired activity, such as mouse-tracking or meeting another dog, or sniffing where another dog has been. And I first used that idea after Ed did a thread on play training. I often talk about treats because they work so well for me. But there are other motivations, such as inclusion in the group. Being the most fascinating one, whether that means you have thee good food, the good toy, or the great places to smell. And I think such a dog as Pyry would be happy in your scenario. That is, there was something in it for her and you led her to it.

I never denied using a reward.....anyone can trace back my posts and find out I am a "User of all methods".....I just don't use a clicker and treats, as I have always mentioned, I need to be in a position to handle dogs without clickers or treats, simply, because they are not always available......at least in my situation......and the bigger the pack ......the easier the handling should be........Was meinst Du?

I don't agree that making oneself appealing to a dog is R+.
Lifestyle and social interaction cannot be reduced to the mathematics of response-stimulus. Motivations around social inclusion are complex, and can't be reduced to one specific behavior and consequence. But, the response-stimulus package must only be considered in specifics, which is why a clicker makes a good marker, and training must be proofed with accumulated distractions.

For some reason, this little exercise I do comes to mind.  When I arrive I let the dogs out to their thing.  Afterward they gather around me and I give them treats and expect nothing in return.  Each patiently waits to get food treats.  There is no jocking, positioning, grabbing the treats out of their random turn.  I have never applied a correction or withheld a treat.  The idea is teach the dog that a treat will be forthcoming. 

Ixas_girl

I don't agree that making oneself appealing to a dog is R+.
Lifestyle and social interaction cannot be reduced to the mathematics of response-stimulus. Motivations around social inclusion are complex, and can't be reduced to one specific behavior and consequence. But, the response-stimulus package must only be considered in specifics, which is why a clicker makes a good marker, and training must be proofed with accumulated distractions.

 I don't agree that it isn't. 

The idea of conditioning is a model, a map, of what happens.  Real life will never be as tidy and controlled as a lab environment, and the purpose of the lab is to try and learn something about what is happening outside the lab, through careful discernment in the lab.

Being fun is a positive experience for the dog.  As a positive experience, it is a reinforcer of whatever behaviors led to person being fun.  R+ isn't something strictly doled out on purpose by humans.  It happens naturally.  It can frequently be unconscious, as when people "train" their dogs to do obnoxious things by inadvertently reinforcing bad behavior.  

Dog_ma

 I don't agree that it isn't. 

heehee! 

I hear what you're saying, and of course feeling good and included, feels "positive".

But R+ IS a labratory term, and the + sign doesnt even mean positive in the "feels good" kind of way, it simply means "the addition of something into the environment that will increase behavior." Without the controls of the lab, the control variables of R and + have no meaning. I point this out because "R+" works from specifics, not generalities. It would be like saying that drinking from two clearly visible cans of cola is a double blind test. You may taste a difference, but it's not a double blind test.

So, I totally agree that good feelings, fun and pleasures are motivating and rewarding, but "R+" is something else. And perhaps the topic of another thread. (Here's a link on stimulus-response packets and how they work: http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/ )