Of Doors and Dominance......

FourIsCompany

There CAN be dominance issues with going through the door, but going through the door first or last doesn't necessarily mean it's an act of dominance. I don't think anyone is saying that going through the door somehow indicates dominance, but a dog with issues of dominance can very well display it by charging through the door in front of everyone else. And an owner can USE that behavior as a tool when dealing with a dog (like some of us have) that actually DOES try to assert his/her dominance in the household.

 Well said Four. I agree that it is not the door or going through the door that might be the problem. But if a dog is bumping, slamming, butting his head through all the others and you, then this is a dominance issue. He does not want to wait, he wants to go first and it is similar to a child who simply cannot wait and therefore becomes rude and whining when forced to wait. In this case the dog should have to wait until asked to go through the door.

mudpuppy

the "requester"

Other than a safety issue for some, I don't think who goes through the door first means much.  I can let Shadow out in the yard and he exits first. Then I do. Then he wants to check on people walking down the street and thinks about joining the barkfest but looks at me first. And I recall and he comes to me. Which one is "dominant"? I echo what others have said. It's not door exiting roll call that is important. It is self-control of the dog who recognizes their human leader as being in control. Often times, Shadow goes out the door before me in the front because then he is in harness and I still need to lock the door. And I can get obedience during the walk or whatever excursion in spite of the fact that he walked out the door first.

In a documentary on releasing a pack of wolves to the wild, the "alpha" stayed behind to make sure everyone got out of the transport kennels and then joined the pack, still walking in the rear. "Alpha" had nothing to do with who was walking in front, for those who care to model dog behavior after wolves.

I still think that leadership, when necessary, is about who controls the resources.

Ron, I thought you were of the opinion that applying dog pack behavior to wolf pack behavior was a flawed view.

great response Ixas

  Any training you inflict upon your dog, from the sit to the heel to the recall is a form of "dominance". Left to his own choices in many cases the dog would not choose of his own accord to walk quietly at our left side, he might walk to the right, he might run in front or he might tear off and run for 2 or 3 miles. The fact that we make him stay at our side is a form of dominance. NILIF is a form of dominance. If I really think dominance is bad, and that the dog should be able to choose, then I should allow the dog free access to the food, the toys and anything else he wants or desires.

FourIsCompany

sillysally

But how do you get a dog down from that kind of excitement? 

 

I can answer that for me. It takes a lot of time and waiting to get the message across. I have them sit. If everyone isn't sitting, I stand erect and look away. Only when everyone is sitting and calm do they get their collars and "tack" on. Only then, does the door get opened. If we're just going in the yard, I say OK and release them. But if they are leashed, I go through the door first because I'm leading and I know where we're going.

But in the beginning, it took 25 minutes to get through the door. I would have them sit and one or 2 wouldn't settle, so I would walk away, leaving them standing there wondering WTH?. And come back in a couple minutes when they were dispersed and start over again. MANY times, I've seen the "good" dog (the one sitting patiently) jump on the "bad" dog (the one who wouldn't settle) as if to say "Calm Down! Don't you know she won't open the door till we're all sitting calmly"?!?!!? But eventually, they got it.

It's not about who goes through the door first, it's about an orderly exit through a small portal.  

Great response!!

glenmar

In the scenerio I described, dog #1 is released and goes out the door.  The anticipation builds with the others because they don't know who gets to be dog #2.  They do quiver with excitement and I'm not sure how to train a dog NOT to wag it's tail.  Those tails go so hard and so fast that the "danger" is a good foot bruising if you happen to get too close to one of the tails.

Is as easy as 4ic example, what you need to do is teach the dogs that the first one to go out (or the next to do so) is the one that is the most CALM, if you release them randomly they will never realize it, "well i'm excited and i went out" no, "you are calm you go out, you are not you will have to wait" and then they will know "the only way i can get out is when i'm calm, being calm is my ticket out of that door"

At least wont be dangerous anymore regardless who goes out first 

snownose

Ron, I thought you were of the opinion that applying dog pack behavior to wolf pack behavior was a flawed view.

Interesting indeed 

FourIsCompany

I don't think anyone is saying that going through the door somehow indicates dominance, but a dog with issues of dominance can very well display it by charging through the door in front of everyone else. And an owner can USE that behavior as a tool when dealing with a dog (like some of us have) that actually DOES try to assert his/her dominance in the household.

I agree, but I think that too often people are too quick to label behaviors as "dominant" when they really aren't.  Kenya charges through the door.  Why?  She wants to get outside.  She's one of the most submissive, biddable dogs I've ever met and is not at all self-assured.  There's not an ounce of dominant temperament in her.  Sometime, I allow (and encourage) charging through the door b/c I get some REALLY nice weaves out of her when she's pumped to be outside.  It's important to me that she do things like agility and rally because she enjoys them and is motivated and driven by them.  For some reason, charging through the door is far more exciting to her than ANY toy or treat I have to offer, so sometimes I allow it.  Anyone who can see her heeling patterns can see that clearly she takes her cues from me and I have not relinquished any dominance to her.

I guess the issue I have with the whole dominance thing is that I think it's a pretty gray area and it can be hard to tell exactly which dogs are being dominant and when.  I've had friends ask me for their input on their dogs before and I can't say I've ever met a dog that I honestly felt was intentionally exerting dominance over the household.  Most of the time, my friends had failed to teach their dogs self-control, but they think that a dog going on the bed is trying to dominance the furniture or a dog peeing in the house is dominating the house and peeing out of spite whereas I see a dog on the bed as just a dog that likes a bed and doesn't know the "off" command and a dog peeing in the house isn't fully potty trained.  With inexperienced dog owners, using a word like "dominance" often results in humans going over the top as far as physical corrections and not focusing on the appropriate areas of training.  Too many people coming to the animal shelter are obsessed over getting their dogs to "heel" and then say "oh my dog is constantly pulling and not heeling when I say heel, he's a very dominant dog."  Um...no, your dog just doesn't understand WHAT it is "heel" means.  Unless a dog is physically correcting and dominating other dogs and people, I just don't see the point of examining every behavior and whether or not the dog is being "dominant".  I can't ever understand how a dog thinks and what their thought process is as far as interacting with humans, but as long as I can figure out a way to get the dog to live safely in my environment and see a measurable increase in the dog's motivation and drive because of this, then I'm happy leaving dominance out of the picture.

Liesje

I agree, but I think that too often people are too quick to label behaviors as "dominant" when they really aren't. 

 I agree that not every behavioral problem is due to dominance, but I think the problem with the word lies in both camps; some are quick to say everything is about dominance, and others are quick to say nothing is about dominance.

Liesje

I guess the issue I have with the whole dominance thing is that I think it's a pretty gray area and it can be hard to tell exactly which dogs are being dominant and when. 

I certainly couldn't tell that with just any dog. I'm no Cesar   But I can tell it with my dogs. I know them. It's not about a certain behavior being a dominant behavior. If Jaia does something and then B'asia does exactly the same thing, it's VERY possible and likely, in fact, that Jaia wasn't being dominant and B'asia was.

But, yeah, I agree with you in that people don't always use the term properly and slap it on behaviors (as in "A dog on the bed is a dominant behavior";) instead of this particular dog doing this particular behavior is a case of dominance (as in, "My dog is biting me and growling at the kids, he pulls constantly when we walk him, and he won't let us sit on the couch while he's up there and we can't sleep at night because he pushes us off the bed";). This dog is being dominant and DISPLAYING that dominance by claiming the best sleeping space (and everything else) as his own.

Kenya isn't a dominant dog. Charging through the door has nothing to do with dominance for her. I can't do that with my dogs. I could and would do it with one at a time, OR Cara and Mia together, but not with all 4, or any combination including the Shepherds - it's dangerous. And they don't do it because they're dominant, either. They do it because they're excited.

Dominance isn't a hard and fast thing you can slap on a dog (most of the time) or on behaviors. It is a gray area. It's dependent on other things. But if you've got a problem dog, and he sleeps on the bed and growls at you and has other "problem behaviors", chances are he's doing some of it out of an assertion of dominance. And you can assert your dominance to modify his behavior.

I found an article by the APBC a while ago that discribes the confusion of dominance very well - IMO. 

http://www.apbc.org.uk/article13.htm

From the article posted by luv: "Problems tend to occur in the human/dog relationship when owners convey signals that unwittingly cause their dog to develop a sense of high status."

I think I agree with this.  The key point is that different dogs have different standards of status, and some don't care much about status at all.  

Sometimes "status" is as simple as "this is what we've agreed on."  Meaning, status quo, not dominant/submissive.  One very typical response to having an agreed upon status quo disrupted is ... growling or snapping.  So if Fido thinks he has every right to be on the couch, and one day the frustrated human grabs Fido by the collar to drag him off, Fido may take exception to this.  That isn't dominance.  That is "Mind your manners, person! Sheesh, the nerve!"

Problems happen when Fido and human have different ideas about what they've "agreed" upon.

On the other hand, I've met dogs that actively seek to renegotiate the status quo, in their favor.  Sometimes this manifests as pushiness, other times as semi-aggressive behaviors. Dogs with a propensity towards dominance aren't evil little plotters, but they will step up to the plate if they feel they can do a better job.  It is quite natural and doesn't require thought.  These are often dogs that are not suggested for novice owners.  They can be fantastic dogs, who are capable of great things.  A dog with a tendency towards dominance (I say tendency because dominance is all relative) is NOT a bad dog.  It is not a bad thing - unless you're a person who wants the dog version of a point and shoot camera.
 

snownose

Ron, I thought you were of the opinion that applying dog pack behavior to wolf pack behavior was a flawed view.

It is, imo, a flawed view, based on current evidence and scientific observation. But some still subscribe to that model. Point being, whether or not you model dog behavior on wolf behavior or not, there is nothing to substantiate that alpha status is determined by who walks in front.

ETA: 

However, if you (generally)  feel the need to walk in front to feel in control and confident and this helps you in your interaction with your dog, then so be it. Walking in front doesn't make you alpha to the dog, but it can make you alpha in your own mind, which may help you to think like a leader, and that could be important.

Liesje

I agree, but I think that too often people are too quick to label behaviors as "dominant" when they really aren't.

I agree with that......but, in my situation, I grew up with dogs, and had dogs all my adult life, so, it is pretty save to say I can pick up on who runs the dog show or is the new up and coming challenger......just by watching them.......once you have more than one dog things will change quiet a bit.

ron2

However, if you (generally)  feel the need to walk in front to feel in control and confident and this helps you in your interaction with your dog, then so be it. Walking in front doesn't make you alpha to the dog, but it can make you alpha in your own mind, which may help you to think like a leader, and that could be important.

I don't need to walk in front of my dogs to prove leadership, but, I do control what and when anything happens at the gate.....not the door, as mine have access to the outside via doggie door.

ron2

It is, imo, a flawed view, based on current evidence and scientific observation. But some still subscribe to that model. Point being, whether or not you model dog behavior on wolf behavior or not, there is nothing to substantiate that alpha status is determined by who walks in front.

Ok, then why bring it up as a comparison to dominance in the dog world? That part I didn't get.

snownose

Ok, then why bring it up as a comparison to dominance in the dog world? That part I didn't get.

I brought it up for those who continue to model dog behavior on wolf behavior. Granted, there are some similarities and some differences. And to offer some real evidence to support the statement that walking order does not define who is in charge.

snownose

I don't need to walk in front of my dogs to prove leadership, but, I do control what and when anything happens at the gate.....not the door, as mine have access to the outside via doggie door

You just proved my point, so I am not sure why you might have an issue with it.