Of Doors and Dominance......

I've also heard the idea of dominance and being the first through the door, but with my dog I just don't see it.  Perhaps it is because my dog simply isn't that enthralled and jumpy around exiting/entering doors to begin with, especially if I'm not clearly going with him.  I taught him wait till released to go through doors mainly for convenience on my part.  Because I live in FL and it is constantly raining, I taught wait so when coming in from wet grass I could take my shoes off, grab the little towel I keep by the door, and then invite him in where I could preceed to wipe his paws down before taking him off his lead.  Proved to be so much easier than having him mulling around the tile leaving wet doggy prints while I'm trying to take my wet shoes off.

Kim_MacMillan

My dogs will go out of the door either before OR after me, depending on the circumstances.

Same here. BUT they have to sit politely if I ask them to and make eye contact before I'll release them to go out, either in front or behind me. I see it as being about controlling the resources (going outside is FUN!) and/or practicing self control a la NILIF rather than a dominance exercise.

Sometimes we eat dinner first, sometimes the dog do, it's all about my convenience. Some nights  it's easier to get them out of the way before I start cooking, sometimes we're eating earlier than usual so I make them wait, sometimes I have a break in cooking where I can take a few minutes to feed them, like when I'm waiting for pasta water to boil. I don't make a big deal out of it, but again, I control the resources. They have to sit or down with their bowls on the floor before being released to eat.
 

espencer

Bottom Line: How does affect the dog the fact of you going first threw the door? ATTENTION, is not how it affects YOU but how affects YOUR DOG?

Some people think (as well as me) that the one who gets out first will be the one that tells how the walk is going to be

Well, as far as my dog is concerned, it has nothing to do with dominance.  If she wants to go outside, she's eager to get out the door.  She just WANTS to out OUTSIDE, it's as simple as that.  If she's not interested in going outside, I have to coax her out the door.  If it had something to do with her wanting to dominate, wouldn't she always try to get out first?  If there's a rabbit in the yard, you bet she wants to be the first one out!!!  If she's been holding her pee for six hours....same deal, she REALLY wants to get out the door.

I guess I'm just not interested in dominance in any context.  As long as the dog understands the boundaries of what is acceptable (and for me at least "acceptable" means what is safe) indoors and as long as I can have her sit and wait when I want to, then I'm happy that she's so eager to get outside and play.

Going out the door has zero effect on our walks.  If I want her in heel at attention, I ask for that and it is given, whether it's while actually crossing the threshold, during parts of the walk, or for the entire walk.  I don't have to dominate my dog to get her to obey simple commands and walk with self control.

So, as far as how the doorway affects my DOG.....zilch, zero, nada, no importance whatsoever.
 

Kim_MacMillan

Yes, feminism arose in the 60's BECAUSE of the male model I was discussing! That is how feminism developed to begin with. It developed to rival this 'male model' that had been in place for so many decades. ...

Only if you ignore the women's suffrage movement of the 19th Century, the radicality of the 1920's, and the WW2 women's labor movement. Actually, the feminism of the 60's had very much more complex origins, and was pretty limited as far as race and class.

40 year old essentialist-feminist ideology is a limited and inappropriate argument against considering societal roles and protocols. We're into, arguably, post-feminism, now. Luckily, it's friendlier, sexier, as well as more inviting, inclusionary, and generative than the 2nd wave from the 60's. The feminists I know celebrate gender difference and interdependence, and wage their battles on 21st Century issues. I'm a feminist who is fortunate to have many schools of gender and power to learn from, including pack behavior and dominance.

Ixa wants to add that she's an staunch lipstick feminist, and a lady ... she loves to have doors opened for her!

espencer

Bottom Line: How does affect the dog the fact of you going first threw the door? ATTENTION, is not how it affects YOU but how affects YOUR DOG?

Some people think (as well as me) that the one who gets out first will be the one that tells how the walk is going to be

But then why would Sally allow Jack to go in the door in front of her?  This hasn't just happened once or twice, but repeatedly.  If they both happen to make it to the door at the same time (take me out the the equation because I am not outside with them, but rather inside opening the door to let them in) Jack generally comes in first.  Now, if they are going OUT, Sally is always first (they have to sit until released), but it's just not that way when they are coming in.  Dominance or no dominance I will still handle the door situation the same when it comes to me taking the dogs in or out because door barging irritates the crap out of me.

I guess the doorway/dominance thing always made sense to me because of my dealings with horses.  At the barn where I used to work, the horses always came to the gate to be brought in for meals according to pecking order--the most dominant horse first then on down the line.  The only way a "lesser" horse got through first was if he hauled ass to the gate before the others got there or you shooed to other horses away to get a specific horse out. 

Here's how I interpret the door happenings at our house. I think it's a case of humans not being part of the dog social scene. Going through doors first matters to some dogs and it matters a lot less to others. Going anywhere (door or no door) before Marlowe is kind of a big deal for Conrad. He is one of those dogs who is intensely concerned about these sorts of things, which doesn't mean necessarily he's dominant or alpha, so much as that he's insecure and can be kind of a bully. He enforces rules on Marlowe in a million petty, symbolic ways because he is not secure. Making Marlowe do certain things is a matter of constantly reassuring himself that he's in control. Marlowe has learned to just let Conrad have his way, it makes life so much easier. Marlowe is not at all concerned about any of the stuff that Conrad is so het up about. The outside will still be there 5 seconds from now. The couch will still be there even if Conrad sits on it for a few minutes. He just waits. Conrad has demonstrated a few times the lengths to which he'll go to defend his little slices of control and Marlowe quickly stopped bothering to make an issue out of it. Marlowe is lazy. He's not submissive, he does not throw submissive body language or appeasement gestures at Conrad, he just doesn't care as much. So for those two it may be a status situation, or it may be just a matter of who wants it more and is willing to be a pushy jerk about it.

How does this map on to things when I'm part of the scene? It doesn't. Conrad is the classic "soft, submissive dog" when it comes to the humans (pretty much any human). He rolls himself for us voluntarily, constantly. He's attentive to our directions, gets off furniture when we say "off" as if someone just stuck him with a hot poker. He follows directional commands incredibly well and will go down a set of stairs or out a door before me if I direct him (which I frequently do because I want the dogs where I can see them, in front of me). Or he will wait until released and go after me if I direct. If I give him no directions then his instinct is to barge if he wants what's on the other side of the door because that's just  natural--you move quickly towards things you want. If he doesn't care about the door opening, he's just as liable to hang back and wait till I open it and then will meander through taking his own sweet time.

Teaching your dog perform a specific "door behavior" often has a laudable effect on the dog's overall behavior. Not because it's about dominance; it's about teaching the dog self-control. Also often a safety issue since being bowled over by a dog charging out the doorway isn't fun. But nothing to do with "dominance".

Max goes out the door first, but I don't think it has anything to do with dominance.  He's just waaay more excited than I am to be going for a walk. Most of the time he's so excited he's dancing all around.  However, if the door is open and I'm doing something in the yard or unloading stuff from the car, he's perfectly willing to "stay" and just be where he can see what's going on. For me, it's more important that he stay when I  tell him to  than who goes out the door first.

Joyce

houndlove

 Making Marlowe do certain things is a matter of constantly reassuring himself that he's in control.

Throwing away the "D" word, I think this post hits on something - there are dogs who try to control things as a means to relieve their own anxiety.  (I don't even think it is a dominant trait.  It is an anxious, pseudo-dominant thing.)

My late Ivan  cared passionately about being the first out the door or in.  He cared about being ahead during walks. But unlike Conrad, he cared as much about this with people.

Ivan was a bit mental, and I don't feel comfortable at all generalizing to other dogs based on my experience with him.  What I will say is that, for Ivan, if you gave an inch he'd take a yard.  Let him barge out the door, and he'd stop responding to commands as well.  He definitely used certain behaviors as "tests" of how much he had to listen to humans.   

fuzzy_dogs_mom

Max goes out the door first, but I don't think it has anything to do with dominance. 

Absolutely! I'll say what I said in the food thread. There CAN be dominance issues with going through the door, but going through the door first or last doesn't necessarily mean it's an act of dominance. I don't think anyone is saying that going through the door somehow indicates dominance, but a dog with issues of dominance can very well display it by charging through the door in front of everyone else. And an owner can USE that behavior as a tool when dealing with a dog (like some of us have) that actually DOES try to assert his/her dominance in the household.

Dog_ma

there are dogs who try to control things as a means to relieve their own anxiety.  (I don't even think it is a dominant trait.  It is an anxious, pseudo-dominant thing.)

Excellent point! I wish we could give out stars. Here. Have a piece of pizza!  

I live with six large dogs.  There is no way that I want to be out the door first because when they are released it can be like a runaway train!  My dogs are asked to sit and wait to be released before exiting, and periodically, we do release one at a time and make the others still wait, but the excitment and anticipation builds so much that it's a bit dangerous to be anywhere near those tails!  To me, being first out the door could be downright dangerous!

These same dogs however, wouldn't even think about leaving the deckk without specific approval, so I'm not buying the dominance deal either.

glenmar

I live with six large dogs.  There is no way that I want to be out the door first because when they are released it can be like a runaway train!  My dogs are asked to sit and wait to be released before exiting, and periodically, we do release one at a time and make the others still wait, but the excitment and anticipation builds so much that it's a bit dangerous to be anywhere near those tails!  To me, being first out the door could be downright dangerous!

I dont understand, why do you let them to get to that level of  "excitment and anticipation" so much that becomes dangerous?  if you let them get to that level they will, if you dont let them they wont

When a dog sits that does not mean is not excited 

espencer

glenmar

I live with six large dogs.  There is no way that I want to be out the door first because when they are released it can be like a runaway train!  My dogs are asked to sit and wait to be released before exiting, and periodically, we do release one at a time and make the others still wait, but the excitment and anticipation builds so much that it's a bit dangerous to be anywhere near those tails!  To me, being first out the door could be downright dangerous!

 

I dont understand, why do you let them to get to that level of  "excitment and anticipation" so much that becomes dangerous?  if you let them get to that level they will, if you dont let them they wont

When a dog sits that does not mean is not excited 

But how do you get a dog down from that kind of excitement?  This is not so much a challenge to the validity of what you are saying as an honest question.  Jack will now be somewhat calm when he is sitting to be let out, but when he is waiting to be fed he literally twitches with excitement, he just cannot contain himself.  We have not figured out how to get him calm before he eats.  We just recently got him to stop yelping while his food was being prepared.  Now he is quiet but ubber excited......   

If you havr a few dogs, it can be a good idea to teach them restraint at doorways. For a while there, our 3 were allowed to pour out the door like a freight train whenever they wanted to bark at something. Emotions would run so high that once or twice fights broke out as the dogs buffeted each other in the mad rush to get outside. They now have to be in control of themselves before they're allowed to rush out. It was a matter of waiting them out.

Nothing to do with dominance though, just excitement.
 

I'm honestly not trying to be rude, but espencer, have you ever LIVED with a number of large dogs?

In the scenerio I described, dog #1 is released and goes out the door.  The anticipation builds with the others because they don't know who gets to be dog #2.  They do quiver with excitement and I'm not sure how to train a dog NOT to wag it's tail.  Those tails go so hard and so fast that the "danger" is a good foot bruising if you happen to get too close to one of the tails.

I did not describe an out of control free for all and I'm sorry that you misunderstood that.  But any number of large dogs sitting at the door, quivering with excitement and tails going a mile a minute, well from my standpoint, that can be a bit unpleasant if I happen to get too close.  And since I do need to open the door.........

When I release my dogs to go through a door, I tell them ONE AT A TIME, and they sort that out themselves.  I've never seen any jockying for who gets to go out the door first, and there is never the same order as to who is first and who is last.

On stairs, I ALWAYS send the dogs first.  On doors I always send the dogs first.  We only go out the front door when we are going out for an offlead walk or game and they aren't going to get far from me ......I'm the one who controls the walk and the ball.  We exit onto a very large deck that runs the full length of the house.  Gates closed or not, NO one leaves that deck without permission.  And, since there are stairs, when permission is granted, THEY go first.  The other time would be when we are going for a ride to going to the lake, or into town for a leash refresher course and the romp in the schoolyard.  They KNOW that good things happen when we go out that door, and they do as they are asked, no matter how excited they are.

I just see no point in getting them all excited and quivering so that I can go through the door first.  I don't WANT to go through the door first, since I need to close and lock it anyway.  What's the point?  To prove to them that I'm in charge?  They already know that without me going through the door first.  If I need to enforce something as silly as who goes out the door first, then I don't guess that I have truly established myself as the leader, now have I?