Insanity at the Vet (Jaia) - 4iC

 This would be very time consuming but I would get a very juicy treat - something he really likes and go about this in tiny steps.

Pull up to the vets and get out of the car. Give him a treat and rinse, repeat a few times.

Pull up to the vets, get out of the car and walk towards some bushes outside of the vet clinic (not near the door). Give a treat. Repeat a few times

Next time, get a little closer to the door

Have someone who works there come out through the door and give him a treat and lots of lovings

Get close to the door with treats

Get close to the door while it's open and have him take a treat from someone who works there

Keep doing this in very tiny steps and see how he does.

For the time being a prong collar or a harness might be the way to go. 

Ron2 has had success in this area with Shadow.  I am sure he will chime in.  Any solution is going to require more time than you have.  I doub't very much any reward no matter how prized is going to work for the next visit.  Maybe the vet can come out to the car or the examine can take place in the yard of the vet clinic. 

Jewlieee

 This would be very time consuming but I would get a very juicy treat - something he really likes and go about this in tiny steps.

Pull up to the vets and get out of the car. Give him a treat and rinse, repeat a few times.

Pull up to the vets, get out of the car and walk towards some bushes outside of the vet clinic (not near the door). Give a treat. Repeat a few times

Next time, get a little closer to the door

Have someone who works there come out through the door and give him a treat and lots of lovings

Get close to the door with treats

Get close to the door while it's open and have him take a treat from someone who works there

Keep doing this in very tiny steps and see how he does.

For the time being a prong collar or a harness might be the way to go. 

 

 

I agree with everything in that post excepting the prong collar.

You could also try Clomicalm, or another homeopathic calming agent-but work on the desensitizing in the meanwhile.  If he starts freaking out when you're in the vets parking lot, take it a step further...don't go to the vets parking lot but the one next door, or further down the street.   

Maxine has had "vet" issues. Not quite so dramatic. When she was a pup my girlfriend was our vet and she was a visiting vet so she had most of her vet visits at home. Even when she was spayed it was in my friend's home. I think dogs really sense the smell and the nerves of other dogs at a clinic. Anyway fast forward 9 years, Max blows her CCL my friend does not do that surgery so we need to go to a new vet. The first visit was..."ok", but Max also came home with me. Then the surgery day, I had to leave her. When I picked her up the next day she practically RAN out of the office with the vet tech in tow. When we went back for her follow up, she would NOT walk in the door, and she was so completely stressed out, it was bad. When her second knee went we took her in to be checked, we tranqualized her (we have acepromazine for thunder phobia) we have done that for subsequent visits to vets BUT we discuss this FIRST with the vet before we bring her in, I worry about drug interactions. This past spring we went to the vet for shots (we moved too far to have my friend do it) we did not medicate, we had our other dogs with us, she was MUCH improved. I think by taking the anxiety away for a couple visits it helped her manage. Her overnight at the vet for her knee surgery was her first night EVER away from us and coupled with only her second visit to a vet's office. Not good. Using a home vet has really nice ammenities, not to mention convenience for the owner.

Is he only like this at the vet?  If so, I'd maybe consider some medication or herbal remedy to calm him on vet visits.  If going to the vet is the only time he has these behaviors, it sounds like it would be hard to socialize out of him, since that might require going over by the vets a lot more!  I took Kenya to the vet once so far and I felt bad b/c I had to hold her muzzle (she actually likes when I touch certain parts of her nose) b/c when she's nervous she kinda tosses her head around and accidentally muzzle punches if you're too close.  I apologized to the vet for having to hold her still, but was surprised to hear the vet say it was no biggie since all the other GSDs that come in are growling, peeing, refusing to move, etc.  Lucky for us when Kenya is unsure of herself her reaction is to freeze and avoid eye-contact.  The vet assured me that they are used to dogs totally freaking out in all manner of naughty ways and not to worry too much. 

I'm going to add to what jewilee said above -- and stress -- you can NOT do this in **one** visit.

He's picking up on everyone's general anxiety -- and you essentially have to turn this around and make it a wonderful, low-pressure place to visit.

when she says to go near the door and treat (in the various steps) -- she's meaning going to the vet several times without even going IN. 

It also helps to have the various techs and receptionists come out TO THE CAR just to give some treats and generally "ooh and ahhhj" and what a "GREAT DOG" over Jaia. 

this is one of those things that's way way better done *before* something bad happens than after -- I never EVER go to the vet without treats.  A separate bag of treats for EACH dog.  More than one sometimes!

Remember I've got the dog who has had IMHA -- I can't tell you how many really HORRIBLY painful procedures Billy's had done over the past year.  Taking blood to the point where the veins in his paws and neck are actually becoming scarred and hard to penetrat!  He's literally had hundreds and hundreds of blood draws.

But with my silly little method he CAN NOT WAIT to get in the door!!  Because he knows it's not just food .. but it's that people are *excited* about getting to give HIM treats.  It's game time - it's FUN time -- it's ... "you're my FAVORITE DOG" time.

this is the dog who, when we went in the FIRST time, he tried to BITE the vet who dared try to look in his hurting swollen raw icky ears!!

I drove all the way to freakin Deland (30 miles away) just so Billy could go and 'visit'.  I've been known to spend a $40 vet visit JUST on a 'check up' if it will solidify something like this.  but at this point the vet can literally do ANY THING AT ALL to him. 

Vets honestly hate to be "the bad guy".  They hate having to hurt them.  so handing a vet a bag of something yummy and saying "he can have ALL that's in that bag ... have fun!" makes the vet feel like you cared enough to PLAN so he'll have an easier time working on your animal.  Frankly, it works.

I've gone in at times armed with separate bags of treats for each tech and the receptionist.  Now maybe there's only one broken up treat in each bag -- but BILLY knows he gets ALL in the bag.  The tech doesn't have to 'stop'.  Everyone appreciates it.

Jaia went in for something that hurt.  And I can promise you that whatever is going on NOW **hurts** too.  So frankly, if it were me I would be giving Jaia at least two valerian root capsules at least 40 minutes before you get to the vet -- OR EVEN BETTER get some valerian tincture and mix two *full* droppersfull with a teaspoonfull of peanut butter. Give it about 5 minutes before you want to get out of the car. 

Tell the vet it's like valium.  (valium is the pharmaceutical they invented to mimic valerian root)  So then if he has to sedate Jaia he'll know what he can do.  Valerian is a nervine herb -- it is *not* a sedative.  it is merely a relaxant.  But it doesn't give brain fog -- so you'll have to talk Jaia thru not being nervous.

and I know this is something you *know* with your head -- but frankly, you may want to take some valerian yourself before you go.  Because when a dog tosses off both collar and leash and tries your patience so severely, then it's a foregone conclusion that YOU will be a nervous wreck about it too.  And that's not conducive to a good outcome.

 In fact, to be completely honest, for this ONE time because it has to be this week and so close on to the last time Jaia freaked out, I'd probably have the vet call something in to Walgreens for you to give Jaia once you get IN the car. then simply drive around until it's effective (or you'll have to carry a big dog like that TO the car).  Once there, call the vet and have techs come out to carry the unconscious dog IN.

If Jaia can just SKIP this one memory it might be better.  Then you can take your time to retrain.  But it will take something prescripton to properly sedate the dog like this -- but it's probably worth it.

Well, I was hoping Ron2 would chime in. 

The trigger for the reaction is going inside the office.  The vet's office has unique smells, plus it is definitely a social event...very memorable.  What I would do is use the weight scale inside the vet's office, usually it is in the waiting room and I would make going on that scale one of the greatest events that the dog has ever experience.  Scales pretty much all look alike and the vet's office is not the only place they are located, so you can practice, Petsmart for example.  You would know you are successful when the reward is greater than fear of the surroundings.  That gets you in the office.  The vets and techs prodding the dog is out of your control.  That depends on their bedside manners.  Just a suggestion, IMO.

Thank you SO much everyone for your ideas! It's so great to have a resource like this when needed!

DPU

Well, I was hoping Ron2 would chime in.

 

I still think he will. :)  

Jewlieee

Keep doing this in very tiny steps and see how he does.

 

I'm doing this. Thank you very much!

Tuesday: We went today and just sat in the parking lot for about 20 minutes. I opened my door about 15 times during that time. Opened it (treat and praise), waited a minute and then closed it. The receptionist came out to ask if everything was ok and I explained what I was doing and she looked at me strangely. I love my vet but I have some issues with some of the support staff. Some of them don't seem to be "animal people".

After the 20 minutes, I drove to McDonald's (I know, junk food - but just this once) and got a plain cheeseburger and fed it to him as we drove back to the vet and just turned around in the parking lot and then we came home.

On future trips, I'm going to take a high value healthy treat (cooked chicken bits) that he doesn't get at any other time so he can relate that special treat to going to the vet. Next trip, I'm going to open my door and perhaps get out of the car myself. As concerned as he's getting approaching the place, I think that's going to be enough progress for now. It's going to take several more trips before he's ready to get out of the car, but whatever it takes. 

His temp is normal and he seems to be doing the mouth thing less often... I'm just hoping it's resolving on its own.

Thanks again for everyone's ideas and concern!
 

I don't have any suggestions but...

 

My new dog (rescue) freaked out at the Vet when they took blood the first time we brought her.  Only after she was help down and made to commply!  The second time she freaked out at the groomer when getting her nails clipped.  I was shocked becasue this dog is so subordinate and she would let anyone do anything to her normally.

 My groomer is right around the corner and this is were I get my food for two of my dogs and my pet supplies, so I started bringing Brooke with me.  Just to walk around and sniff around without having anything done to her.  Each time I went the groomer would treat her and pet her etc.  This went on for about 4 times before she needed her nails clipped again.  I brought her in and she hesitated when she had to go into the back room, but I went with her this time and had a pocket full of treats.  She wouldn't take a treat but she was calmer and the groomer took her time and we talked to her etc..  She really did very well.  I am going to the Vet next week with River and plan on taking Brooke just for the ride and vist, I am thinking that if they have more good expierences than bad they get better.

 I think desensitizing is the best way but it will take time.

We were having the same problem with Sassy and one visit, they had to muzzle her just so the vet could examine her.  For other reasons, I changed vets and when I made the appt, I told them about Sassy's issues.  When I took her for that visit, I went in to make sure the waiting room wasn't crowded before I brought her in.  One of the vet techs was awesome and came from behind the desk and got down on the floor and called Sassy to her. Sassy was hesitant but did go over and see that she just wanted to give her some love. The whole time I was feeding Sassy bites of carrots (one of her favorite treats). I also worked on having her sit - then treating, having her lie down - then treating. It kept her focus on me and not the surroundings.  The vet was as awesome as the vet tech and also got down on the floor and petted Sassy while she chatted with me.  That was all over 2 yrs ago and Sassy now loves going to the vet. I had to take her for her HW test yesterday and as soon as we pulled into the parking lot, she starts wanting to get out and go in. Seriously, I have to fight her off from jumping over me to get out.  If I let her go, she'd head in the door without me .  They were all oohing and aahhing over her yesterday and the vet tech said "I just love how she looks". I knew she meant her peppy personality more than anything and it is a night and day difference from the visit where she had to be muzzled. I never, ever go to the vet without treats and I really do all I can to make it a super happy experience. If the clinic you're going to can't help you with that, then I strongly suggest you find another one. Jaia is young and this can be turned around, but it's going to take a concerted effort from everyone.

FourIsCompany

I still think he will. :)  

 

Chime ...

Another long day baking my brains.

Shadow has been anxious at the vet and the vet can't usually get near him. We end up muzzling him for vaccs. But we have made progress. I would have to drag Shadow in. Now, he walks in. Before, he would get anxious when the vet appeared. Now, he doesn't. I've even gotten him to walk into the examining room, which would usually send him into a panic where he has air snapped before. Click and treat for good behavior. Sometimes, we just visit and get treats. The examining room was accomplished with my fabulous brisket, smoked for over 6 hours. All in all, we've gotten that far in about 3 visits. It could happen faster and more often if I had the time. Today, I didn't get home until 6, one hour after the vet closes.

Also, the vet is willing to work outside or in the car, whereever the dog is comfortable.

As was discussed before in another thread, I may always have to muzzle Shadow or have him sedated, though I would prefer to have him be calm and cool about it. And the only way I'm going to do that is change the meaning of the vet's office, if at all possible, from one of anxiety and fear to one of reward and goodness.

And yes, any of it will take time. In the meantime, see if the vet can attend J'aia in the car or outside on a comfortable piece of grass. And, as time goes by, help J'aia redefine the vet visit. Similar to what you have done with B'asia. That is, try not to reward the anxiety and search for ways to engender calming signals. There are others here, such as Spiritdogs and Glenda who have to muzzle one of their dogs at the vet. It ain't no shame. OTOH, you had calm behavior before. I think you can get there again. If not, you will be part of a club here of people with special dogs. Of course, they're all special.

 

Thanks for the chime, ron.

If nobody minds, I'll just update this thread with our progress.

Wednesday: On today's trip to the vet, after sitting for a while in the parking lot, I got out of the car and went  around back and opened up the back door and Jaia got out. We walked around a little while I praised and treated him. When I started walking in the direction of the door to the office, Jaia cringed, so I immediately turned around and walked away and praised and treated him. After a few more minutes outside, I opened the car and let him back in. It went very well.

Funny thing, when we arrived, the vet and 2 assistants were in a horse trailer in the parking lot and he was doing something horrendous to a pig in there because the squealing was terrible!  (He's a large animal vet, too.) So Jaia had to adjust to this squealing time and time again, but he did so well, I decided to stay. Eventually they were done with the pig, and we relaxed in for our 20 minute wait.

I hope to go every day, but I have a Dr appointment Friday and I may have to have something done to my knees and be out of commission for a while.

So, there's my story and I'm sticking to it!  

It sounds to me like you've got the right plan. Just like you did with B'asia. That is, though you don't necessarily have to use a piece of tin and plastic to make a clicking sound, you've already changed social landscapes and have set either dog in question up for success by creating a "world" in which the undesired behavior extinguishes and the desired behavior increases by means of the dog's own motivation, which at times may be treats, at other times, increased privileges, whatever. And yes, each different situation can require a different motivation. But all dogs are motivated. Whether it's motivation to some reward, even self-defined, or motivation to avoid a correction or other unpleasant experience.

Bravo for realizing the range of reactivity and moving away from it. Any dog, regardless of training style can get in a reactive state in which they won't respond. Once out of range, the dog can respond and slowly, or as fast as the dog can, work your way back in.

Or, whatever the issue was will resolve itself.

I know my "method" doesn't seem like much but it has worked well for us. Plus, I think there's a general side effect of positive training in that he may be more likely to respond to me since it has rewarded him well in various other places. A trust builds up that I will not lead him to bad places.