How can "leadership" resolve normal, self-rewarding behaviors?

DPU

A four wheeler!  I need to get one for rescue purposes.  I have to test the dogs to see if they have a herding instinct by chasing and biting the tires.  Prospective adopters need to know this.  Of course, it would not be a toy and I would not have fun on it.

Of course you wouldn't have fun on it.....nobody who owns one has any fun with it......lol

It's all operant conditioning whether you use the words or not. My relationship with dogs, and their behavior, dramatically improved the day I decided to discard concepts of "leadership" and "dominance" from my mind. They aren't helpful; and most people interpret them to mean they have to punish and intimidate the dog. Dealing with problem behaviors or pro-actively preventing problem behaviors is a lot easier if you think in terms of operant conditioning instead of in terms of "leadership". 

You want a dog who follows you around?  condition the dog to believe you are the most fascinating thing in the universe. You want a dog who doesn't eat your shoes? make sure the dog spends time near shoes and is rewarded for not eating the shoes until it becomes a habit.

mudpuppy

My relationship with dogs, and their behavior, dramatically improved the day I decided to discard concepts of "leadership" and "dominance" from my mind.

How weird, my situation was totally the opposite, when i adopted those concepts my relationship with my dogs improved drastically 

mudpuppy

They aren't helpful; 

 

You forgot to add the words "for me" after that statement, is like if i was saying "operant condition is not helpful" 

mudpuppy

You want a dog who follows you around?  condition the dog to believe you are the most fascinating thing in the universe. 

And for MY dogs (past and present ones) the most fascinating thing in the universe is a great leader

DPU

A four wheeler!  I need to get one for rescue purposes.  I have to test the dogs to see if they have a herding instinct by chasing and biting the tires.  Prospective adopters need to know this.  Of course, it would not be a toy and I would not have fun on it

Come on, admit it ... you want to get one so that you can take rescued sled dogs for the work they want. Actually, in dog sledding country, it is not uncommon to take a defunct 4-wheeler, remove the engine and leave the brakes on it and let the dogs pull that. It keeps them in shape during the off-season.

ron2

DPU

A four wheeler!  I need to get one for rescue purposes.  I have to test the dogs to see if they have a herding instinct by chasing and biting the tires.  Prospective adopters need to know this.  Of course, it would not be a toy and I would not have fun on it

Come on, admit it ... you want to get one so that you can take rescued sled dogs for the work they want. Actually, in dog sledding country, it is not uncommon to take a defunct 4-wheeler, remove the engine and leave the brakes on it and let the dogs pull that. It keeps them in shape during the off-season.

Then it would not be tax deductible.  Maybe though, I have to think about it.  Definitely would not be able to claim the 14cents a mile (I think its 14 or 17 this year).

mudpuppy

It's all operant conditioning whether you use the words or not. My relationship with dogs, and their behavior, dramatically improved the day I decided to discard concepts of "leadership" and "dominance" from my mind. They aren't helpful; and most people interpret them to mean they have to punish and intimidate the dog. Dealing with problem behaviors or pro-actively preventing problem behaviors is a lot easier if you think in terms of operant conditioning instead of in terms of "leadership". 

You want a dog who follows you around?  condition the dog to believe you are the most fascinating thing in the universe. You want a dog who doesn't eat your shoes? make sure the dog spends time near shoes and is rewarded for not eating the shoes until it becomes a habit.

It IS all operant conditioning.  I don't mind the concept of leadership, but I certainly never equate leadership with dictatorship.  And, to me, dominance reminds me of cave men, chest-beating apes, whips and chains, tyrants, and wife beaters.  Sorry, but that isn't the mental picture I have of me relating to my dogs.  I'm more into leadership of a benign sort.  I liken it to the effect that a charismatic motivational speaker has on his or her audience.  They WANT to follow.

spiritdogs

I don't mind the concept of leadership, but I certainly never equate leadership with dictatorship.  And, to me, dominance reminds me of cave men, chest-beating apes, whips and chains, tyrants, and wife beaters.  Sorry, but that isn't the mental picture I have of me relating to my dogs.

Maybe, just maybe....that is the view you need to overcome ( the 60's are over)......I am a woman in my 30's, I believe what I believe, I don't like anyone telling me what to do, but, I do appreciate a stronger attitude with strong willed dogs......I can see how being a push over could not be beneficial in my handling of hard nosed dogs.........

snownose

spiritdogs

I don't mind the concept of leadership, but I certainly never equate leadership with dictatorship.  And, to me, dominance reminds me of cave men, chest-beating apes, whips and chains, tyrants, and wife beaters.  Sorry, but that isn't the mental picture I have of me relating to my dogs.

 

 

Maybe, just maybe....that is the view you need to overcome ( the 60's are over)......I am a woman in my 30's, I believe what I believe, I don't like anyone telling me what to do, but, I do appreciate a stronger attitude with strong willed dogs......I can see how being a push over could not be beneficial in my handling of hard nosed dogs.........

Maybe you need to overcome the 80's attitude (it's all about me) 'cuz they're over, too, and see some things from the dogs' point of view.  I don't know how you ever got the idea that I'm a pushover - or that I've never owned or trained a hard nosed dog.   I will tell you that my experience has been that dogs understand fair or unfair really well.  And, you don't have to be hard-nosed yourself to be a leader, just fair and consistent. 

spiritdogs

Maybe you need to overcome the 80's attitude (it's all about me) 'cuz they're over, too, and see some things from the dogs' point of view.  I don't know how you ever got the idea that I'm a pushover - or that I've never owned or trained a hard nosed dog.   I will tell you that my experience has been that dogs understand fair or unfair really well.  And, you don't have to be hard-nosed yourself to be a leader, just fair and consistent. 

I never called you a pushover....my dear, you must relax some.......nor did I say I was hard nosed......I just mentioned I appreciate a stronger attitude.....I don't know how that could be misread as being a hard nosed leader.......maybe, I am not in on the feminist lingo,so, my apologies to you.

spiritdogs

It IS all operant conditioning.  I don't mind the concept of leadership, but I certainly never equate leadership with dictatorship.  And, to me, dominance reminds me of cave men, chest-beating apes, whips and chains, tyrants, and wife beaters.  Sorry, but that isn't the mental picture I have of me relating to my dogs.  I'm more into leadership of a benign sort.  I liken it to the effect that a charismatic motivational speaker has on his or her audience.  They WANT to follow.

So by saying "They want to follow" are you suggesting that anyone with a view other than yours (maybe that is the same 80's attitude you were speaking of) have dogs that do not want to follow them?

 I am glad that I am able to make up my own mind about how to train my dogs. If I depended on the input of others some of your posts and others would ensure that the word “positive” was as stricken from my vocabulary as the word “dominance” is from yours.

 Hopefully I have violated no forum rules with this post. If so I apologize to the moderators.

snownose

spiritdogs

Maybe you need to overcome the 80's attitude (it's all about me) 'cuz they're over, too, and see some things from the dogs' point of view.  I don't know how you ever got the idea that I'm a pushover - or that I've never owned or trained a hard nosed dog.   I will tell you that my experience has been that dogs understand fair or unfair really well.  And, you don't have to be hard-nosed yourself to be a leader, just fair and consistent. 

I never called you a pushover....my dear, you must relax some.......nor did I say I was hard nosed......I just mentioned I appreciate a stronger attitude.....I don't know how that could be misread as being a hard nosed leader.......maybe, I am not in on the feminist lingo,so, my apologies to you.

I'm really not your dear, and I'm quite relaxed thanks for your concern.

I do not see where anyone within this thread, nor some of the others where we have debated similar topics, have equated leadership with dictatorship. Dictators are out for themselves, they do not lead, they compel, and using whatever means they must in order to ensure compliance.

Owners who compel rather than lead...  that really is my primary objection to some of the methods that others suggest on this board.  So nice of you to agree.

Many stories of atrocities committed by dictators come to mind, Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, etc, are you suggesting that everyone who believes in a "pack leader" principle is a dictator?

No, but if they inflict pain in an effort to assert "pack leader" status, then I am not sympathetic.

I think that is a bit much even for you.Maybe since you have such a problem with the word "dominance" you should take a deep breath and think before deciding that everyone who uses the word is the "devil". Yes “dominance” can lead stupid people to do stupid things but one cannot just throw the word out the window because of stupid people. There actually are dominant dogs and just because you do not like the word, does not make that fact go away.

I never said that anyone should throw the words away, but IMO if the words are there, I have as much right to express my opinion of them as anyone does.  And, thanks for agreeing with me again.  Stupid people do stupid things in the name of dominance.  Which is why I think we, as trainers, should choose our words more wisely when we try to impart knowledge about the relationships between dogs and humans.

So by saying "They want to follow" are you suggesting that anyone with a view other than yours (maybe that is the same 80's attitude you were speaking of) have dogs that do not want to follow them?

Not suggesting that at all.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  Clearly, however, the fact that you don't like my opinions on training, does not mean that there aren't some dogs that do not want to follow, but, rather, are compelled to do so.

 I am glad that I am able to make up my own mind about how to train my dogs.

I hope your dogs are happy about your choices, too.

 
If I depended on the input of others some of your posts and others would ensure that the word “positive” was as stricken from my vocabulary as the word “dominance” is from yours.

Strike whatever words you like - the dogs mainly care about our actions anyway.
 

 Hopefully I have violated no forum rules with this post. If so I apologize to the moderators. 

Well, I don't recall anyone having been red-inked lately for disagreeing with me, so I think you're safe.

spiritdogs

I'm really not your dear, and I'm quite relaxed thanks for your concern.

My dear was just a very friendly way of approaching a not so friendly person....but, there are other names or words available.....

 I think that characterizing me as unfriendly is a personal attack, rather than a rebuttal of any opinion I have offered here, so I will excuse myself from this thread.  No point taking the bait, now is there?

snownose

My dear was just a very friendly way of approaching a not so friendly person....but, there are other names or words available.....

snownose, my hat is off to you for your attempts. you are a far nicer person that I

spiritdogs

 The funny thing is that I do not disagree with you completely. I just find your attitude about what you believe to be unproductive IMO. You are so quick to go full speed against anyone who mentions the word "dominance", "pack leader", "force" or God forbid "punishment" and heaven forbid "alpha roll that you most likely end up pissing him or her off. Or they never come back to the forum where maybe with time and some understanding they might just have received some help and education. You do not change peoples minds about dealing with their dogs when you have a holier than though attitude about it.

 The majority of people who use unproductive methods of dealing with their dogs do so because they do not know any better, or because they are following the advice of someone, be it a bad trainer or their great grandmother and very few (probably none that would post a question on a forum) are doing it for the sheer joy of screwing up their dogs.

 I know of trainers who are opposed to using anything but a flat collar and are very vocal about it. I have also seen dogs that arrived to their class in a prong and never returned to the second class, all because the trainer was so full of himself or herself that they could not think about how they delivered their message and ended up upsetting the people who unknowingly arrived in the “wrong” collar. Who loses when that happens? The dog does. IMO working with people with an intent to educate is more important than shoving the message down their throats.

 So for record, I do not disagree with you on everything, although I don’t think I like you that much, and my dogs are very happy dogs, and they want to follow me so have no worries about their welfare.

 You use your hammer well.