How can "leadership" resolve normal, self-rewarding behaviors?

dgriego

mudpuppy

People who claim to use leadership to modify behavior, especially to stop self-rewarding behaviors, are usually acting as bullies, not leaders. Leaders don't "set boundaries and limits"; those are the actions of bullies and/or parental figures (depending on how it is done). 

 This reponse caused me to pause and wonder why I even bother trying to communicate to some of the folks on this forum. It is obvious that it is pointless. You have no real clue where others are coming from and have made your judgements and perceptions and seem to be content to stick with them. That is your right. I am not even going to speak to the bully comment as IMO it is not deserving of one. I find it offensive since I do claim to use leadership in my household but I will leave it alone. I could make many comments about what I think, but I will restrain myself.

 

With respect, I see where Mudpuppy is coming from because I witnessed this at the foster dog showing at Petsmart.  In the name of leadership, a tiny dog was scruffed and alpha rolled multiple time by two handlers because the tiny dog would lunge and airsnap when meeting a new dog.  That is not leadership but how people use leadership to justify their modifying behavior techniques.  Just so you know, they both got bit.

I also think you misread and misinterpreted the parental figure comment.  Parental figures are not leaders, IMO.  Head of household does not equal leader.  I myself am still looking for a firm definition of what Leadership means.

DPU

In the name of leadership, a tiny dog was scruffed and alpha rolled multiple time by two handlers because the tiny dog would lunge and airsnap when meeting a new dog.  That is not leadership but how people use leadership to justify their modifying behavior techniques. 

 Ohhhhhh, I would have spoken up about that......I adopted Nanook at Petsmart, the folks I was dealing with were very nice ........I can't go to Petsmart on a Saturday, I would leave with a dog every single time

DPU, have you ever heard of the saying "Some are leaders and some follow", it's the attitude, the energy, the presence....you have seen it on this board.....some just fall into single file behind a person and just follow.....I am nothing like that, I don't see that in you, but there are people out there who are parents, bring home the dough and don't amount to anything when it comes to leading a home/household to a successful future........are you getting what I am trying to get across?

dpu and mudpuppy....

 there are SOME parents who are leaders - the two terms are not mutually exclusive.

likewise

 there are SOME parents who are bullies - the two terms are not mutually exlusive

snownose

DPU, have you ever heard of the saying "Some are leaders and some follow", it's the attitude, the energy, the presence....you have seen it on this board.....some just fall into single file behind a person and just follow.....I am nothing like that, I don't see that in you, but there are people out there who are parents, bring home the dough and don't amount to anything when it comes to leading a home/household to a successful future........are you getting what I am trying to get across?

I understand what you are saying.  On this forum and elsewhere in the dog world the word Leader connotes ( as a secondary meaning) harsh discipline techniques to modify behavior.  That is why I gave up the word Leader in favor of Caretaker.  I am going to see to it that my dogs are cared for to be the best they can be with respect to good behavior, health, and personality (meaning they have to be entertaining).  That is my commitment to the dogs in my house.  I don't see myself as a "parental figure" because I am a different species than the dog.  A dog is happiest when the dog can be just a dog. 

mudpuppy

People who claim to use leadership to modify behavior, especially to stop self-rewarding behaviors, are usually acting as bullies, not leaders. Leaders don't "set boundaries and limits"; those are the actions of bullies and/or parental figures (depending on how it is done). 

DPU

houndlove

Just because something can fit in to a dog's mouth doesn't mean it's at all tempting for the dog to do that. I try to manage things so that stuff that I know is tempting, that I know the dogs will take a chance to try to get, is not just laying all about at their level and easily accessible when I'm not around. That, to me, is setting a dog up to fail, and giving the dog a lot of opportunity to form bad habits. I can leave books and magazines on coffee tables, but I'm not going to leave a ham sandwich on the coffee table and leave the room for a half an hour and still expect it to be there when I get back.

I was being proactive and pre-emptive to make sure all potential items in the house are safe from destruction.  I can't read a dog's mind as to when an item will not be tempting one day but will be tempting the next day.  I believe in the statement that a valued or high prize item loses value over time (satiation) in favor another item of original lesser value.  Therefore all items that the dog can get at are potentially at risk.  At the other end of the managment is the wait and see approach.

 My Swissy does at times come out of my son's room with a toy in his mouth and if I tell him to drop it - he does.  There are times he comes trotten out my room with the hubby's undies hanging out of his mount too.  Is it every minute? no.  Is it everyday? no  I worry about him swallowing things, he has a huge throat and once swallowed a NYLA bone whole!  So I do try and keep small balls and things dangerous to him up and out of the way (management).  When I am home and he is in my care, I manage him or keep a door closed if necessar (sine garbage is his big focus).  When I am not home, I manage my dog - he is crated. 

My thing about the vocabulary and the language and the way things are expressed is when people get told "Your dog does X because you aren't a good leader." and then kind of leave it at that, or recommend general leadership-building exercises that don't directly address the behavior in question. And that really accomplishes nothing for someone who is trying to figure out a way to stop their dog from engaging in a problem behavior.  "Leadership" really encompasses a huge, subjective, range of attitudes, methodologies, and actions, that are going to be different for every individual person, t's just not that helpful. Same goes for "energy" or "dominance" and also the same could be said for just saying "management" or "caretaker" which is why I generally try to elaborate on that and say "management of the dog's environment" because that gets a little bit more fine-grained as to what the heck I'm talking about. I think just saying, "You have to be the dog's X." is just so overly simplistic and not all that helpful. And that goes for X=leader, =boss, =parent, =friend, =snuggle-bunny, whatever. NILIF in and of itself is not going to stop a counter-surfing dog from counter-surfing. It might make his begging at table better, it might make his behavior around the house more calm, it might help ingrain default obedience behaviors, it will likely make him more attentive to his handler just in general. But a dog who constantly and successfully finds food free for the taking on top of a counter is still going to get up on the counter if he thinks he can get away with it and no one is looking, NILIF or no NILIF.

I can’t believe that there is such a debate on leadership.  For me it is clear and simple, I have been in leadership roles in business for over 25 years and strive everyday to be a good leader.  I have worked for “bosses” and “leaders” and believe me, I know the difference.  I am sure everyone on this board has worked for a boss, those of you who have had the pleasure to report to a leader would clearly understand the difference.

In business it is clear that the position as a manager, supervisor, lead, etc. gives you the authority to accomplish certain tasks and objectives in the organization, this “power” does not make you a leader...it simply makes you the “boss”.   Leadership differs in that it makes the followers "want" to achieve high goals, rather than simply bossing people around.  Likewise, these principles are true with our children and our pets.

Good leaders are "made" not born. Good leaders develop through a never ending process of self-study, education, training, and experience.

Many of us, including me, at times forget this on our dog forum.  Being a good leader to our dogs is something that we must work to achieve and understand.  That is something that we “self proclaimed leaders” could help people to understand better. 

DPU

With respect, I see where Mudpuppy is coming from because I witnessed this at the foster dog showing at Petsmart.  In the name of leadership, a tiny dog was scruffed and alpha rolled multiple time by two handlers because the tiny dog would lunge and airsnap when meeting a new dog.  That is not leadership but how people use leadership to justify their modifying behavior techniques.  Just so you know, they both got bit.

I also think you misread and misinterpreted the parental figure comment.  Parental figures are not leaders, IMO.  Head of household does not equal leader.  I myself am still looking for a firm definition of what Leadership means.

 I saw no attempt to clarify the bully comment. I saw no attempt to state that it pertained to "some" people not on this forum who alpha rolled a dog at Petsmart. The interpetation I read was that "usually" people who say that they use leadership are bullies.Since I am one of the ones on this forum who do believe that leadership is important (to both dogs and kids and employees) and do make every effort to do this to the very best of my ability, I read that I in the opinion of the poster am a potentiol bully. "Usually" implies the majority.(definition of:commonly; generally; regularly).

 Two people alpha rolling a strange dog at a petstore because it is snapping at another dogs would better be labled as idiots and not "leaders, caretakers, parents or even bullies.

 I am a parent and I and my husband do our very best to be leaders to our children. I am amazed that there are parents who do not lead their children. To me leadership goes hand in hand with raising children, owning dogs and managing employees.

luvmyswissy said and defined leadership pretty darn well and I am amazed that people have a problem with it.

houndlove

My thing about the vocabulary and the language and the way things are expressed is when people get told "Your dog does X because you aren't a good leader." and then kind of leave it at that, or recommend general leadership-building exercises that don't directly address the behavior in question. And that really accomplishes nothing for someone who is trying to figure out a way to stop their dog from engaging in a problem behavior.  "Leadership" really encompasses a huge, subjective, range of attitudes, methodologies, and actions, that are going to be different for every individual person, t's just not that helpful. Same goes for "energy" or "dominance" and also the same could be said for just saying "management" or "caretaker" which is why I generally try to elaborate on that and say "management of the dog's environment" because that gets a little bit more fine-grained as to what the heck I'm talking about. I think just saying, "You have to be the dog's X." is just so overly simplistic and not all that helpful. And that goes for X=leader, =boss, =parent, =friend, =snuggle-bunny, whatever. NILIF in and of itself is not going to stop a counter-surfing dog from counter-surfing. It might make his begging at table better, it might make his behavior around the house more calm, it might help ingrain default obedience behaviors, it will likely make him more attentive to his handler just in general. But a dog who constantly and successfully finds food free for the taking on top of a counter is still going to get up on the counter if he thinks he can get away with it and no one is looking, NILIF or no NILIF.

I see your point, is as easy as teaching your dog the difference between: RIGHT and WRONG

Do your dog knows WHY he should not chew your shoes? or you just put your shoes away and thats it?

Do your dog knows that your shoes are YOURS? or he does not have a clue and he just watches you putting "those things" away? 

Do you teach the REASON of why you are putting them away? 

I agree, leadership isn't a finite package. It's exercised with varying styles and attitudes. Sure, there's good leadership and bad - bullying is a kind of leadership, inspiring followership through fear. But it's a very unsophisticated and limiting form, IMO.

With my dog, my leadership style is more about fun and purpose and opportunity. Life with me is full of good surprises and kind regard. My dog is inspired to trust me and follow my cues, because good feelings and events arise. Maybe not at that moment, but consistently as part of the course of our lives. Does she follow me only because of the punishments and rewards I provide? No, it's also because she feels good and safe and confident in my decision making. I don't violate her boundaries, and I don't let her violate mine. Mutual respect. She trusts me.

How did I establish that? Same set of tools I imagine most of you use. Partly management; partly attitude, enthusiasm and purpose. Confident attitude, benevolent purpose and genuine enthusiasm create positive followership. Dogs and kids, especially, know when you're faking it. I confess that I had to clean up some of my conduct to achieve this. Example, my dog never witnesses me yelling at other drivers on the road or gossiping, b****ing and moaning about people; she does witness me behaving with respect towards living beings, expressing gratitude, and sharing. ... I strive to conduct myself with generosity and grace, so that's the world view my dog lives with. My dog enjoys and cooperates with this environment. (And ya know what, I enjoy it too! )

In another household, perhaps the focus is behavior performance that's fulfilling, or hunting, or comfort, or ... whatever. That's the part of attitude, enthusiasm and purpose that varies. 

In short, to me, the usefulness in focusing on leadership, is to draw attention towards one's own intentions, attitudes and conduct. How we use management tools flows from there. Whether we will inspire followership flows from there.

This, I believe, is why, when my dog wants a snack, she looks to me, not my trash or cupboards. And if I'm not available, it doesn't occur to her to help herself. The more impeccable I am, the more this is true.

houndlove

My thing about the vocabulary and the language and the way things are expressed is when people get told "Your dog does X because you aren't a good leader." and then kind of leave it at that, or recommend general leadership-building exercises that don't directly address the behavior in question. And that really accomplishes nothing for someone who is trying to figure out a way to stop their dog from engaging in a problem behavior.  "Leadership" really encompasses a huge, subjective, range of attitudes, methodologies, and actions, that are going to be different for every individual person, t's just not that helpful. Same goes for "energy" or "dominance" and also the same could be said for just saying "management" or "caretaker" which is why I generally try to elaborate on that and say "management of the dog's environment" because that gets a little bit more fine-grained as to what the heck I'm talking about. I think just saying, "You have to be the dog's X." is just so overly simplistic and not all that helpful. And that goes for X=leader, =boss, =parent, =friend, =snuggle-bunny, whatever. NILIF in and of itself is not going to stop a counter-surfing dog from counter-surfing. It might make his begging at table better, it might make his behavior around the house more calm, it might help ingrain default obedience behaviors, it will likely make him more attentive to his handler just in general. But a dog who constantly and successfully finds food free for the taking on top of a counter is still going to get up on the counter if he thinks he can get away with it and no one is looking, NILIF or no NILIF.

 This makes sense. I do agree that just throwing out the comment "you need to be your dog's leader' and leaving it at that is not helpful nor do most even know what that means exactly.

 If someone asked me how to stop their dog from chewing household items, I would not tell them to "be their dogs leader" as that is not the solution to their problem. Instead you need to provide them with a realistic method to prevent their dog chewing inappropriate items.

 At the same time throwing out the comment that leadership is meaningless and has nothing to do with your dog and is not needed or desired is just as bad if not worse than throwing out the leadership comment.

espencer

Do you teach the REASON of why you are putting them away? 

Um no. I teach that chewing on shoes is much less rewarding that chewing on other, more acceptable things. I make sure that if I can help it no dog in my house even goes so far as to figure out that shoes are tasty (so far, none have). I make sure that routines and habits are established that make chewing on acceptable things easy and readily available and chewing on unacceptable things not really on the radar.

Given that dogs don't speak English, I'm pretty sure that trying to explain the very human concept of ownership in perpetuity even though it is not being held by me or on my person would just sound like so much blah blah blah to the dogs.

And lest anyone get the wrong impression, my house is in no way locked down. Shoes are laying everywhere, remote controls are on coffee tables, after we serve ourselves dinner, the leftovers in the pan are left on the counters and stove until later when we can put them away. To some extent I can get away with this because both dogs do not have free run when no one is home, though once upon a time Marlowe did and he 95% of the time did great with it. But given we have a 3 story house in which we spend most of the time in the finished basement, and the dogs are free to roam about as they please when we are home, I think it is testament to the ability of careful management in the initial stages of training the dog leading over time to a dog (or dogs plural) who are trustworthy in the home with very lax dog-proofing.  No lengthy treatises to the dogs about the concept of ownership and right and wrong necessary.

houndlove....do your dogs get in the garbage?