How can "leadership" resolve normal, self-rewarding behaviors?

Animals are creatures of habit, which I think is your friend when trying to resolve normal, self-rewarding behaviours, more so than a dog's natural (sometimes) inclination to avoid the wrath of the one that hands out the food and makes all the decisions that matter.

I treat all animals almost the same when it comes to something they naturally do. I manage their environment and give them something that fulfills their natural needs that they're allowed to do. Rabbits chew because they're rabbits, so I keep things I don't want them chewing out of reach and make sure they always have things they are allowed to chew. If my management fails and I catch them chewing something I want, I chase them off, put it out of reach, and give them an acceptable alternative. All animals are creatures of habit, and eventually they go automatically to the acceptable alternative, which covers me on the odd ocassion I forget to move something out of reach. It's never something I'd want to rely on long-term, though.

Similarly, Penny adores food because she's a food-driven dog. I can certainly teach her not to touch food until I say so because she's more trainable than a rabbit and can be fooled into thinking humans know better than dogs, but it's not reliable. If I'm not there to remind her not to eat, she'll just eat it. My feeling is that the only way I could teach her not to eat something is with conditional adversion, because her drive to eat is so strong. I personally don't feel like that drive is so unmanageable that I need to do something mean to her like that, although I did think seriously about it when she ended up at the vets after eating cooked bones someone tossed over the fence. I don't think it matters to her in the least that I won't like it when she picks up cooked chicken bones when we're walking and wolfs them down. She just wolfs them down faster because she knows I'll take it off her if she gives me the chance. It matters to her a great deal that I won't like what she's doing at other times, which is why I have a generally well-behaved dog. To me, there's not much point telling her to drop a chicken bone. She's not stupid and she desperately doesn't want to lose that choice morsel she just found, so she's hardly going to give me a chance to get it off her. She's done that in the past and it only resulted in her losing the choice morsel. If I was smart, I would have started training her then to learn that yielding up cooked chicken bones she finds gets her something even better from me, which would have had nothing to do with leadership and everything to do with operant conditioning.

So when all is said and done, animals are animals and handling their natural, self-rewarding behaviours doesn't need to incorporate leadership. Just because a dog can be intimidated by a strong will doesn't mean it's the only or even best way to get it to do what you want it to. Rabbits can't be intimidated by a strong will, and nor can they be convinced by sheer bull-headed confidence like dogs can. You have to manage and try to establish acceptable habits. I've found this to be slow and sometimes unreliable in many cases, especially compared to teaching a tractable dog, but I've also found it to be an excellent way to learn more about your animals and develop a better understanding of who they are, what drives them, what they want, how they feel, and why they feel that way. Even with the rabbits, who view obvious attempts at training with extreme suspicion, have established reliable new habits thanks to my management and no longer do the things I so badly didn't want them to do. Don't underestimate the power of habit!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that all animals living with humans do things we don't want them to because it's what they would naturally do and it's rewarding to them. Only dogs are accused of being bratty or thinking themselves above humans somehow for being this way. Leadership doesn't come into it for any other animal, so why should it for dogs? Rabbits have a social hierarchy too, but the human is usually at the bottom because rabbits are convinced that no one knows better than a rabbit. I think there's a tendency to take a dog's tractability for granted, which doesn't really do the dog credit and does little for the relationship between human and dog. 

 

espencer

Actually i dont think a good manager makes necessarily a good leader

 

Speaking in wider terms than dog training - a GREAT manager IMHO is a great leader

Now a great leader isn't necessarily a great manager - but no great manager IMHO can be a great manager without being a great leader.  They might be a good manager but can't be great without the great leadership.

specific to counter surfing or eating stuff I don't want him to, Bugsy is easy - he really doesn't do it, I do not think it is about me it is about him.  You could put a raw steak down in front of him and he wouldn't eat it until he was told 'ok'

however, he is prone to over excitement around people at the house and cats put him WAY over the edge. No training thus far has corrected these.  If the food thing is due to my leadership than these would be gone too.

they ain't 

 

I manage the environment, that is important after all if you leave juicy steaks out on the counter every day in a spot where they can be easily reached even the most well behaved dog will fall from grace and eat one. But I also set boundaries and teach them what they are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do. As they learn you will have minor issues (which are the handlers fault) such as an eaten shoe, or a raided garbage can but as you teach the dog what is allowed and what is not these should diminish and if you control the environment properly while you are teaching you should have very few problems. Hektor has lightly chewed 1 shoe (DH left out) and 2 high lighters (son left them on the floor) and pop tarts and potatoes (son left pantry open) since joining our household. I came home today and the boys had left the pantry open, both dogs in the house and there were open pop tarts on the bottom shelf of the pantry (uneaten and undisturbed) and Hektor left them because he has since been shown that the pantry is not his. I do think it important that any dog that is part of my family should be able to be trusted 100% in the house, they should be free of crates at night and during the day since one of their duties is the guardianship of the home when we are away. This is not accomplished overnight but with a combination of managing the environment and providing leadership that should be the end result. Hektor is almost 8 months now and has the free run of the house at night. He began in a crate, when he was solid with his potty training he was given the bedroom and now that he understands that shoes belong to me, stuff on the counters belong to me and the plants belong to me he has graduated to running 100% free at night.

 For me having to crate my dogs whenever I am away defeat the purpose for having them. The crate is useful as a tool but (again IMHO) should not be relied on as a means to control your dog when you are not home. As Espencer stated, you must set boundaries and the dog must be taught what is acceptable and what is not. This is easily done without hitting, jerking, screaming or otherwise bullying the dog.

I do think it important that any dog that is part of my family should be able to be trusted 100% in the house, they should be free of crates at night and during the day since one of their duties is the guardianship of the home when we are away. This is not accomplished overnight but with a combination of managing the environment and providing leadership that should be the end result.... ...For me having to crate my dogs whenever I am away defeat the purpose for having them. The crate is useful as a tool but (again IMHO) should not be relied on as a means to control your dog when you are not home.

bravo :) we have no crates in our household for the very same reason

dgriego

 

 For me having to crate my dogs whenever I am away defeat the purpose for having them. The crate is useful as a tool but (again IMHO) should not be relied on as a means to control your dog when you are not home. As Espencer stated, you must set boundaries and the dog must be taught what is acceptable and what is not. This is easily done without hitting, jerking, screaming or otherwise bullying the dog.

 

How do you set boundaries, though? I set boundaries with operant or classical conditioning, not leadership. I enforce boundaries with leadership, but operant conditioning comes into that as well. What is this airy concept of leadership in a practical sense? Are we talking about leadership as in taking reponsibility of your dog and control of its environment, or are we talking leadership as in 'energy projection' and hierarchies?

To me, management is a technical job - overseeing details and defining accountability. Leadership describes the position of cultivator of followership, in which motivated followers take on self-management and responsibility.

I answer to a manager because they have a task list I must fulfill to qualify receiving my paycheck. When I work for a manager, I'm doing a job.

I answer to a leader because they have invited from me an excitement and confidence that motivates me to achieve by offering the best of myself. When I work for a leader, I am extending my potential.

Good leaders know when to apply management and when to support self-management. With dogs, I think that focusing only on managing behaviors and the environment means that the dog learns to follow the task-reward management structure, but is never invited to sign on to an excited and confident leader-follower relationship.

I use mostly leadership behavior with my dog (and co-workers and students and employees) because I like to contribute to self-management (self-responsibility). When I lead people (or my dog), they do stuff and take care of it, I get to play mentor and visionary. When I manage people (or my dog), I'm stuck in the world the of overseer/accountant/mommy. Some of that's necessary, sometimes, but I prefer less and less and less.
 

Well, I don't have the dogs in order to protect my home and frankly, if someone did break in, I would not want them to see my dogs as a threat that they'd have to neutralize (I live in the U.S. and for better or worse, bad guys have guns here).  I have homeowners insurance for my stuff, but my dogs are not replaceable. Marlowe has his own room for his safety because everyone makes mistakes. He is largely quite trustworthy home alone, but one day a small mistake of my husband's coupled with a small mistake of Marlowe's resulted in Marlowe almost dying of ibuprofen toxicity. Conrad, well, he has is own issues that aren't really within the scope of this topic and I don't consider him a normal case. Of course at any time when we are home, asleep or awake, both dogs are free-roam. With Marlowe it took about 3 months for me to be completely comfortable with that arrangement at night (he's a heavy sleeper), and about 6-9 months before I was comfortable with that when we were home and awake (prior to that he had to be in the same room as us at all times, with the door shut).

Can someone explain to me, as if I were a first-time owner seeking advice, the exact actions and steps I would take in order to exert my leadership and ownership of, say, my dog-level kitchen pantry cabinet (in which many delectable boxes of crackers and bags of chips reside)? Because I'm still not clear as to what the difference is between leadership of the dog and management of the environment.
 

dgriego

For me having to crate my dogs whenever I am away defeat the purpose for having them. The crate is useful as a tool but (again IMHO) should not be relied on as a means to control your dog when you are not home. As Espencer stated, you must set boundaries and the dog must be taught what is acceptable and what is not. This is easily done without hitting, jerking, screaming or otherwise bullying the dog.

 

I used to not believe in crates until about 7 years ago when Rumour was a pup, not only did he have a serious case of SA. but was the biggest chewer I had ever encountered. I used to keep him in the bathroom when I went to work or had to go somewhere.....he was so destructive that a crate really helped him a lot. He hasn't been in a crate for years. Tanner is being crated, only because he has the same tendencies of being super destructive, you can manage the environment all you want and give corrections, but he has chewed off a corner of a 500 dollar electric fireplace, x-mas lights, nibbled on my deck, door jams, all with having chew toys available to him....see these are items that I can't remove, so, until he is 100%, he will stay in the crate at night.

I can say this, a GSD that has issues will change your mind about crates........ask Glenda....

houndlove

Can someone explain to me, as if I were a first-time owner seeking advice, the exact actions and steps I would take in order to exert my leadership and ownership of, say, my dog-level kitchen pantry cabinet (in which many delectable boxes of crackers and bags of chips reside)? Because I'm still not clear as to what the difference is between leadership of the dog and management of the environment.

 

 

I'll answer first, I am sure it is different for every owner, but here is how I do it.

My dogs are just like all dogs, nosy, wanting to see what is what.With that being said when a dog shows interest in an item that smells really good( could be meat wrapper ), I approach the dog in the beginning, body block and guide him away from the area, and use a marker noise. Usually, that would be a louder, sharper noise,this does not work over night, but after so many repetitions, the dog eventually gets it to where all I have to do now is use my marker noise, and they know what it means, they stop on a dime and leave it.

I am telling the dog to step away.....it's mine , he is not allowed to go near it.

corvus

How do you set boundaries, though? I set boundaries with operant or classical conditioning, not leadership. I enforce boundaries with leadership, but operant conditioning comes into that as well. What is this airy concept of leadership in a practical sense? Are we talking about leadership as in taking reponsibility of your dog and control of its environment, or are we talking leadership as in 'energy projection' and hierarchies?

 

Set boundaries by establishing what is allowed and what is not. Using shoes as an example here is how I have set boundaries with Hektor: Shoes are left in the living room along with a few chew toys. When Hektor goes for the shoe I will get up, while telling him "hey leave it" and I will go close to him, standing over him if needed, once he drops the shoe I will offer him a toy. If he goes to the shoe I will use body blocks to prevent him from taking it, it is MY shoe. After some time he will rarely go for the shoe and if he does all I need to do is say hey and move forward toward him (this is just a leaning of the body and not a running towards him) and he will walk away from the shoe. My son left our bedroom door open yesterday on a day when I was unable to get home for lunch; he also left Gunnar and Hektor both free in the house. I arrived home at 7:00pm yesterday to find them both sleeping on the couch and nothing harmed even though my husband's stinky running shoes (which Hektor has always desired) sitting on the bedroom floor right where DH had left them.  I use the same method with food, I practice leave it with food, I practice anti counter surfing and yesterday when I arrived home there was a plate of french fries on the counter that my son had left (darn those teenagers!) in easy reach of both dogs yet still there and not eaten.What is this airy concept of leadership in a practical sense?  I cannot describe it well but it is a presence with which you carry yourself. You are the leader, you own and control all good things, you own the space, you own the toys, you own the yard and your dogs sense this and respond to it. It has nothing to do with being mean or cruel. You also read your dogs, or I should say you listen to what they are saying. Your dog speaks very well and says many different things, if you watch and listen you know when to move, when to block and how to respond in a manner that your dog understands. It is both taking responsibility and energy projection and hierarchies and how much of each is needed depends on the dog. Many of you deny that any dog cares about leadership and also deny that any dog has an inclination to assume leadership. I cannot disagree more. Some dogs do not care about leadership and rarely demonstrate any tendency to take charge, but some do. I own one that if left to himself would rule the household and he is only 8 months old. Without leadership and clear boundaries he would end up being a menace. He is a great dog, but he is not a dog that can just be left alone to do whatever he pleases. On the other hand, my other dog is the type that would most likely make a pretty good dog for anyone with little effort. He is easy to train, wants to please and has zero desire to rule anything or anyone. I also do not understand how many of you deny any and all pack tendencies. Dogs are pack animals, yes we all know they are not wolves, but they are pack animals and they do have hierarchies within their respective packs. A dog like my Gunnar would exist within a pack and never demonstrate any dominant behavior, two dogs like him would live in harmony together, and two or more dogs like Hektor would be in a constant struggle to establish which one is going to lead. There is dominance and submission clearly displayed between dogs when they are in a pack situation. The amount depends on the personality of the dog. I just cannot get how this can be denied. One can still disagree and detest Cesar (I do not) without throwing the entire baby and bathwater out at the same time.

 

dang, great post.

 

maybe the folks that don't see it are the ones with just one doggie?

 we got three - and might get one more. we sure see it with three. in one situation, our female is clearly in charge. in other situations, our older male, saler is the one in charge.... (only considering the dog interactions here without human involvement)

snownose

I'll answer first, I am sure it is different for every owner, but here is how I do it.

My dogs are just like all dogs, nosy, wanting to see what is what.With that being said when a dog shows interest in an item that smells really good( could be meat wrapper ), I approach the dog in the beginning, body block and guide him away from the area, and use a marker noise. Usually, that would be a louder, sharper noise,this does not work over night, but after so many repetitions, the dog eventually gets it to where all I have to do now is use my marker noise, and they know what it means, they stop on a dime and leave it.

I am telling the dog to step away.....it's mine , he is not allowed to go near it.

Okay, I'm sorry to be a pest but I think I'm still riding the short bus here as it were. That's pretty much what I do, when I'm around to see the offending event. I have an attention-getting noise, "ah ah!" (which I find myself often on the verge of using with my husband which would probably not go over well!) if I see them getting nosey with something I don't want them nosing around, and I tell them to "go" or "come" depending on where I am and where the object is. But I also try to avoid situations in which I'd have to do this constantly over every little thing. It's for situations where it can't be helped. And I can't understand how this translates to when I am not around. This strategy includes a human being there as an integral part of the environment at that moment. It's what makes the situation non-rewarding and perhaps even mildly punishing (depending on the temperament of the dog). When the human is no longer part of the environment, what is the mechanism for the dog learning that behavior is still not safe?

When I ask myself the question, why are my dogs trustworthy around the house while not being supervised?, my own theory is that I manage the environment well so they aren't spending all day every day walking through a minefield of temptations, I have met their needs for physical and mental stimulation so they aren't looking to make their own fun, and I have not let them develop habits that include doing things I don't want them to do. I use extinction of non-rewarding behaviors when I've found they have started to develop a bad habit, so they stop trying and the whole behavior kind of slides off their radar (though I will admit, neither dog is really the sharpest tool in the shed, which can make my job easier). Is that leadership or management? I don't really worry that much about what to call it, it's just life with dogs. From what I've been able to tell in conversations with friends who have young children, it's a pretty good dress rehearsal for life with kids!

snownose

houndlove

Can someone explain to me, as if I were a first-time owner seeking advice, the exact actions and steps I would take in order to exert my leadership and ownership of, say, my dog-level kitchen pantry cabinet (in which many delectable boxes of crackers and bags of chips reside)? Because I'm still not clear as to what the difference is between leadership of the dog and management of the environment.

 

 

I'll answer first, I am sure it is different for every owner, but here is how I do it.

My dogs are just like all dogs, nosy, wanting to see what is what.With that being said when a dog shows interest in an item that smells really good( could be meat wrapper ), I approach the dog in the beginning, body block and guide him away from the area, and use a marker noise. Usually, that would be a louder, sharper noise,this does not work over night, but after so many repetitions, the dog eventually gets it to where all I have to do now is use my marker noise, and they know what it means, they stop on a dime and leave it.

I am telling the dog to step away.....it's mine , he is not allowed to go near it.

 

What about when your not home?  Or when your taking a shower?  How do you stop the dog then, management I would assume?  I do similiar things if I catch my dog noising around.  But for the most part, if I am in the other room I will just close the pantry door and not worry about if they are in it or not.

lostcoyote

I do think it important that any dog that is part of my family should be able to be trusted 100% in the house, they should be free of crates at night and during the day since one of their duties is the guardianship of the home when we are away. This is not accomplished overnight but with a combination of managing the environment and providing leadership that should be the end result.... ...For me having to crate my dogs whenever I am away defeat the purpose for having them. The crate is useful as a tool but (again IMHO) should not be relied on as a means to control your dog when you are not home.

bravo :) we have no crates in our household for the very same reason

 

 

Humm..  I too use to be a non believer of crate years ago and I came home everyday at Christmas for two weeks with my Xmas tree on the ground, ornimates chewed and light cords, after about 2 years that behavior went away on its own with maturity and he was the best dog anyone could ever want - but what hell it was at that time.  This same dog has gone to the Bridge at 15. 

 Now I have three dogs, 3, 2, and 1 years old.  The only dog reliable to leave uncrated is my 1 year old female.  the 3 year old is crated during the day and sleeps with my daughter at night.  The  2 year old is crated at both nights and if we are not home.  They are all different, they are all trained the same but they all have their own development times.  And PS:  the one who is crated the most is the one that someone would think twice about before entering my home.  I would rather they cleaned out my house then hurt my dogs and honestly how many people really have dogs for protection in its true sense?  My dogs are all good alerters, crated or not and that is all I need.  If an intruder is bold enough to come into my home after hearing those voice barking - then so be it, I dont' think any of the dogs would actually attack anyway.  I do beleive that dogs sense fear, if we (the family) were in anyway being hurt or harmed then yes, the dogs would protect - I would hope.  I have family, pet raised dogs, watch dogs, not GUARD and Protect dogs. 

luvmyswissy

What about when your not home?  Or when your taking a shower?  How do you stop the dog then, management I would assume?  I do similiar things if I catch my dog noising around.  But for the most part, if I am in the other room I will just close the pantry door and not worry about if they are in it or not.

 

 

I have to touch on something that houndlove mentioned......giving dogs what they need, be it the right diet, snacks, stuff to chew on, mental exercise as well as physical exercise.....besides they have each other.....they are not constantly trying to get into something....I took a picture of materials that are in a paper bag sitting on the floor while the dog was snoozing, and not interested in the items in the bag at all....items in the bag are, empty hotdog pack, which they had the pleasure of eating, meat wrapper that once contained their hamburger meat, empty peanutbutter jar, and more assorted items......

As I said, after a while the dogs understand not to get into stuff like that.

I'll post the pic if you want.