Aggression with Certian Dogs

DPU

Even Karen Pryor warns about abruptly stopping a Clicker Training session because of the 'let down' effect.

I could be wrong but I think there's a difference between a clicker training session and a romp at the dog park.

ron2

I could be wrong but I think there's a difference between a clicker training session and a romp at the dog park.

Both can be fun, maybe extremely fun for the dog.  Stop it abruptly, say within 1 to 1.5 seconds (the offical time limit to apply a successful correction) and whala, what do you get?

snownose

Ron, do you really believe that by rewarding the positive the negative/bad behavior will go away?

It's not just a matter of me believing it. It's part of the process of the 4 quads of OC, which all beings use, whether you carry a bag 'o treats or whip your dog with a bullwhip. These are things determined by people with far more education, creds, and experience than me. Some of them have been studying this for longer than I have been alive. I was born in 1964. Karen Pryor was involved in the dolphin studies in 1965. The results were analyzed and published by 1969. Before all that, Pryor had trained her dogs with corrections and punishment. But you can't really scruff a dolphin. So, she's been owning and training dogs for longer than I have been alive and has the education and even publishing creds. Dunbar has also been around the scene for at least that long.

Operant conditioning is happening. Behaviors that do not get rewarded get extinguished. Behaviors that get rewarded get reinforced. By introducing a reward that is the utmost to the dog, you make all other rewards pale. And then, you can help decide which behaviors will go away. And it is easier to manage the timing of marking and rewarding, even from a distance, than it is to administer a correction or punishment, especially from a distance.

And I agree with you in that a stable play group could be better for some dogs than a dog park, where unknowns could change things up too much.

I simply can't buy into getting rid of severe issues by just concentrating on the wanted behaviors and rewarding them.

If that were the case nobody would have anymore problems with aggression of any kind, be it dog or human.

snownose

I simply can't buy into getting rid of severe issues by just concentrating on the wanted behaviors and rewarding them.

If that were the case nobody would have anymore problems with aggression of any kind, be it dog or human.

I agree. I think a combination of rewards and punishment would be the most effective. I mean I defintely don't think I should beat my dog everytime he does something unacceptable. I speak to him in a firm voice and I can tell he knows because he will put his head down and then lay down next to me. Conner is very much wanting to please me, so when I talk to him firmly he knows that he's in trouble.

I worked with him a lot this weekend, we took a break from going to the park and he has been listening REALLY well. Last night my friend brought her dog, Penny, over to play with him. She had his rawhide and he didn't care for that.  He started barking at her.  Well eventually he took the rawhide right out of her mouth and she got aggressive with him and he got aggressive back. So I immediatly stopped him told him "No" in a firm voice and told him to go lay down, which he did. Later he was playing with her again. We went to the park yesterday and I'm starting to recognize when he is getting possessive over a ball or getting too aggressive in general. He's the sweetest dog, he just doesn't want anyone touching his stuff, including his mom. :)

I don't remember who said that my dog just wants to "move forward" and be out of the house...but you should come over and hang out with my dog.  He doesn't want to "move" forward he wants to sprint forward. He has TONS of energy and I've found that unless I want to run 2 miles twice a day with him the dog park is pretty effective in letting him get out his energy. So for now, it's a walk in the morning and dog park after work.

ron2

Karen Pryor was involved in the dolphin studies in 1965. The results were analyzed and published by 1969. Before all that, Pryor had trained her dogs with corrections and punishment. But you can't really scruff a dolphin. So, she's been owning and training dogs for longer than I have been alive and has the education and even publishing creds. Dunbar has also been around the scene for at least that long.

What? those studies are around 40 years old?.............they are obsolete then (where i have hear that before?)

I dont think you can extinguish bad behavior by rewarding the good one, why? because that "bad" behavior IS actually the dogs own reward to himself, we can use again the dog on the bed example, if you reward him when he is not on the bed that wont make him stop thinking that your bed is way more comfortable than the floor, for the dog your bed is the 8th wonder of the world, it IS a "reward" for him to be there, a reward that he gives himself, ONLY when you teach him wrong from right he realizes that what he was doing was actually not allowed, if you dont teach that the dog will NEVER know that being on the bed is actually something you dont want and it should not be done, you can reward him for not to be on the bed but the bed on his eyes will STILL be a good place to be when he wants, because no one taught him other way

Same if the dog is aggressive towards other dogs, you can reward the dog when he is calm but that wont take away the desire of attacking other dogs, when a dog is obsessive the obsession will always be stronger than a New York Steak in front of him, rewarding the dog for being calm does not cure an obsession, dogs react in less than 1 second from obsession or fixation to attack, you cant wait for the dog to be calm to reward him, is like saying "i will wait for you to stop fighting to reward you for not fighting", and it can happen everywhere, not only when you have your dog on a leash and you can turn around and leave

Emotions can cloud a dog's mind, if he is in front of a dog and is getting annoyed by him he wont be like "hey i can get food for not attacking him", his emotions will tell him that it is way better reward to show that dog a lesson than a treat

You MUST teach the dog the difference between right and wrong, if not then you will teach the dog that being calm is good but be on the bed and attack other dogs is good also since no one said the opposite

MTaylor

I agree. I think a combination of rewards and punishment would be the most effective. I mean I defintely don't think I should beat my dog everytime he does something unacceptable. I speak to him in a firm voice and I can tell he knows because he will put his head down and then lay down next to me. Conner is very much wanting to please me, so when I talk to him firmly he knows that he's in trouble.

I worked with him a lot this weekend, we took a break from going to the park and he has been listening REALLY well. Last night my friend brought her dog, Penny, over to play with him. She had his rawhide and he didn't care for that.  He started barking at her.  Well eventually he took the rawhide right out of her mouth and she got aggressive with him and he got aggressive back. So I immediatly stopped him told him "No" in a firm voice and told him to go lay down, which he did. Later he was playing with her again. We went to the park yesterday and I'm starting to recognize when he is getting possessive over a ball or getting too aggressive in general. He's the sweetest dog, he just doesn't want anyone touching his stuff, including his mom. :)

I don't remember who said that my dog just wants to "move forward" and be out of the house...but you should come over and hang out with my dog.  He doesn't want to "move" forward he wants to sprint forward. He has TONS of energy and I've found that unless I want to run 2 miles twice a day with him the dog park is pretty effective in letting him get out his energy. So for now, it's a walk in the morning and dog park after work.

 I would like to add a few comments as a former dog park user. First as to your original question about aggression towards certain breeds, it is no surprise to me that this issue may have started with a boxer. Boxers if not trained otherwise, do have a unique way of physically interacting with other dogs. They like to approach face on and will instinctually raise their front end and legs in a boxing manner. Many dogs interpret this as threatening.  It has been my experience that boxers can have a difficult time in off leash interactions because of this. Boxers aside, certain dogs can have issues with dogs of certain colours, size, breeds, gender etc. My dog does not like any dog under a year old. I have no idea why - he just does. He is a puppy hater!

Your dog is obviously a resource guarded. If you want to continue going to dog parks you must correct this. Eliminating toys at the park is a good idea but the truth of the matter is ANYTHING can a will become a resource, even a small stick. It is impossible to control a dog park environment. You have to control the resource guarding - ie do not allow your dog to put any object in his mouth at the park. You need a strong "leave it, drop it" command. I think you will have more success by removing the resource than trying to eliminate the guarding. As to ignoring the unwanted behaviour and rewarding the good behaviour - I agree with espencer that dog aggression/fighting/guarding can be self-rewarding to the dog and each time they engage in that form of behaviour it can cause an escalation in the behaviour. JMO

I love dog parks and for a lot of dogs they are great places to socialize and burn off energy. It is very important however that you find a park that suits your dog. If your dog is a RG a park with tennis balls lying around is not a good match. We always have to set are dog up for success- not failure. There was a dog at the park we used to go to that was a resource guarder. It started with 'his' ball but when the ball was taken away it then became any object he could claim. Over a period of about 6 months this dog was involved in numerous fights, punctured 4 dogs and bit 2 people trying to break up the fights. One day he challenged a huge GSD male and got his a@@ whipped. The RGing stopped. He had finally been corrected, punished and the reward was eliminated.

MTaylor

I worked with him a lot this weekend, we took a break from going to the park and he has been listening REALLY well. Last night my friend brought her dog, Penny, over to play with him. She had his rawhide and he didn't care for that.  He started barking at her.  Well eventually he took the rawhide right out of her mouth and she got aggressive with him and he got aggressive back. So I immediatly stopped him told him "No" in a firm voice and told him to go lay down, which he did. Later he was playing with her again. We went to the park yesterday and I'm starting to recognize when he is getting possessive over a ball or getting too aggressive in general. He's the sweetest dog, he just doesn't want anyone touching his stuff, including his mom. :)

 

I think a combination of rewards and punishment would be the most effective.

Agree! 

However, when aggression is involved and resource guarding - punishement is not the approach.  It is to complicated of a behavior and a behaviorist resouce should be considered if anyone is uncertain.  Aggression between dogs is something I can't speak to since I have never expierenced it - however, aggression on an aggressive dog is dangerous.

I do think that stopping the fun is something the dog understand overtime.  I know mine does.

espencer

What? those studies are around 40 years old?.............they are obsolete then (where i have hear that before?)

I dont think you can extinguish bad behavior by rewarding the good one, why? because that "bad" behavior IS actually the dogs own reward to himself,

Actually, I should say further that -P is part of extinguishing. That is, not rewarding undesired behavior helps to extinguish the behavior. If the behavior has been self-rewarding, I still think that providing a greater reward to do what you want is best and that is where the creativity of you or your trainer comes in.

Age does not make a scientific finding obsolete. Better, more correct information makes  a former theory obsolete. That is, the work of Pryor, Dunbar, the Coppingers, and L. David Mech, make the previously flawed studies of wolves and dogs obsolete. It's not the age that makes a theory obsolete, but it's inaccuracy. All you have to do now is prove the people I have mentioned as being wrong to make their theories obsolete. But that may take you a while.

Ron, I can't help but say this.....with all due respect, you are like a sheet in the wind. Your opinion has changed drastically....and please, out of respect for me, don't come back with all that "The books of " speech.....there are many other training methods out there, and are valuable, more valuable than the extreme +R dribble........for extreme dogs........sorry.........if this approach would work for all cases the world would be clicking and treating all the troubles of the dog world away.

ron2

Actually, I should say further that -P is part of extinguishing. That is, not rewarding undesired behavior helps to extinguish the behavior. If the behavior has been self-rewarding, I still think that providing a greater reward to do what you want is best and that is where the creativity of you or your trainer comes in.

Ron, it seems hat you are not getting what i'm saying, a comfortable human bed is "the greatest reward of all times" for some dogs, sure some really high quality food can make a dog happy BUT that does not take the "bed idea" out of their mind, what do you get with that? you get the same worry on the back of your mind 24/7 that your dog might jump on it again so you have to keep worried about closing the door every time you leave, check where the dog is while you are in another place of the house, etc. etc

Same with dog aggressive dogs, the fixation of "teaching the other dog a lesson" is the greatest reward for some of them, more than a New York Steak, sure if you have him on a leash you can turn around and leave BUT that wont take the other dog out of their mind

THOSE are the occasions where you maybe could avoid the situation but you are not solving the problem, the difference is that i dont have to be next to the dog 24/7 to know he will make the decision that i would like him to take

ron2

Age does not make a scientific finding obsolete. Better, more correct information makes  a former theory obsolete. That is, the work of Pryor, Dunbar, the Coppingers, and L. David Mech, make the previously flawed studies of wolves and dogs obsolete. It's not the age that makes a theory obsolete, but it's inaccuracy. All you have to do now is prove the people I have mentioned as being wrong to make their theories obsolete. But that may take you a while.

 

We already had this discussion before remember? remember that we discussed that ANY professional these days compares wolves with dogs?, every professional that you and i quote has only work with dogs and thats it, no wolves involved whatsoever in their findings, do they use same terminology? well that still does not mean somebody is comparing wolves with dogs, we just have to call the things by their name and if that terminology became famous with wolves, that does not mean it belong exclusively to them

Moderator's note: this is a "help" thread, not a debate thread. Please be sure comments are directed towards assisting the OP. Feel welcome to express your opinion about ""Aggression with Certain Dogs", but analyzing each other's thoughts and choices, or criticizing each other for personal beliefs, has no place here. Debate threads belong in Trainers, Philosophies and Methods.

Thank you, all.
 

Ixas_girl....you are correct, but cranking out false hope for clicking and treating all troubles away can send out the wrong message, not to mention catastrophic results with "Certain" dogs.

Who says debate doesn't help? Is there a rule that says "don't debate on a help thread"?  It is still on topic IMO.  Debates on a help thread give the OP options to "think" about and may help the OP make a decision based on them, their dogs and their issues. It helps people "question" what they were or were not doing. Trying to limit a discussion to "do this" or "do that" makes for a not so informative answer or suggestion.  Especially, when there is much to consider in way of methods.  The OP now can determine if clicker training or other methods is best for them.  It may lead the OP to reserach methods more thoroughly and to understand fully and then make an "informative" decision.. instead of taking someone advise on a dog forum, or maybe, just maybe, it will lead the OP  to a PROFESSIONAL to evaluate because it is now clear to them that the subject and suggestions are controversial and the problem so complex.  If the thread is not getting ugly or going off topic then it should be left alone, stop stiffling!

 I do agree, the personal stuff can be kept out and still the message would be the same.  Ron deciding to stand behind a different method than he did before is unimportant to the whole thread - those disagreements or messages should be taken to PM.