Suggestion for all new dog owners: The Gentle Leader

Because our GSD came to us with a neck wound, I had to use the Gentle Leader.  He had no training, wasn't housebroken, couldn't walk on a leash, and a harness offered very little control.  I needed to gain control and opted for the GL.  I watched the videao and purchased a thinner, lighter leash.

He didn't like it at first, but he got used to it.  He continued to paw at his muzzle periodically,though.  I had good results training him to walk on a leash with it, but as he grew, he came to hate it.  He'd stop every few feet and paw at his muzzle or rub his face in the ground, attempting to remove it.  Once he scratched his nose and bled because he kept pawing until he got it off his muzzle.  The other thing I disliked about it was everyone asking me "why is your dog muzzled, does he bite?"  Well, it wasn't easy convincing people, who never heard of a GL, that my GSD was NOT muzzled!  Peanut hated it from the start.

I got tired of Draico's fighting it and all the questions and tried walking with a flat collar.  That lasted one walk as both dogs were pulling in a competetive way to take the lead.  So, I tried the GL on both of them, again, but no success.  I went to the prong collar, and it worked wonders.  They stopped pulling and learned to loose leash walk.  Now I put both the prong collar and flat collar on them, but attach the leash to the flat collar.  No pulling, but if I left the prong collar off, they'll pull.

Bottom, line, I don't think any ONE thing will work for ALL dogs.  I think you have to find what works best for/with your dog, that's why we have a variety of products on the market, JMO.

ladiebug

Bottom, line, I don't think any ONE thing will work for ALL dogs.  I think you have to find what works best for/with your dog, that's why we have a variety of products on the market, JMO.

I agree ladiebug, every dog is different and some things work for some and not for others. BTW I also use the prong over the flat collar with the leash on the flat collar.

Just took Atlas for a 45 minute walk without the gentle leader.  He no longer is pulling except at grass... he loves to roll around on it.  Anyways.... one 2 hour walk on the gentle leader and now he walks pretty acceptable without it.  What more could you ask?

I have a Gentle Leader at home. I bought it about two years ago when I ran into a pulling issue with Gaci and I wanted something I could use at those times when I didn't have time to teach LLW. I spent three weeks getting her acclimated to it. Not wearing it full-time, just getting it ON her and having her wear it for short periods. Even with three weeks of slow, methodical work, one day she up and took off when I brought it out. She ran into my bedroom, crawled onto my pillow, and laid down. She wouldn't budge, with any amount of coaxing. I tried the next day, same thing. She was absolutely, totally, upset at the idea of putting that collar on. Even though going on walkies is one of her FAVORITE things to do, she still ran and hid.

 Because of my use of the Gentle Leader with her, she now is totally uncomfortable in "getting dressed" to go on walks or drives, with any equipment. Because she's got a normal martingale collar, her tracking harness, her front-clip no-pull harness (I got it after setting aside the GL), and her seatbelt vest, it is hard to watch her unhappy about putting these things on. I have worked with her on these issues for a couple of years now, and while she now tolerates it, she still doesn't like it, and you can see when you put her collar/harness on that she shrinks just a little, or puts her ears back, to acknowledge that she's still not trusting of putting new things on. The difference now is that once she's dressed, she totally forgets about what she's wearing. It's not the wearing that is the problem, it's the "getting it on and off", a memory from when she used to wear the GL.

 She also didn't take well to the GL, as some people describe. She turned much more subdued behaviourally, but on the other hand always appeared to be much more on edge and anxious. It was a strange contradiction. She wasn't enjoying her walks, she was simply tolerating them. And I think that's why she finally decided that enough was enough, the walk wasn't worth that feeling for her.

 I've since set it aside, but I do keep it in case I someday find a use for it. But for my sized dogs, I have found that a no-pull (front-clip, not restrictive) harness does the job for pulling equally well, and without the negative side effects that occur in a lot of dogs. And there is virtually no conditioning required for these types of harness, you just put 'em on and walk.

 I do see the effects in dogs that people here are describing, even when they are applied properly. There are very few dogs who "like" the GL. Some dogs do learn to tolerate it relatively okay, and some dogs don't care much, but for the most part most dogs don't really like them. I've experienced this on some of my training lists as well, a lot of others seem to notice this as well. What was once considered to be an ideal "pain-free" tool to use, now isn't as recommended by some as it used to be. Others still swear by it, but I wonder if it's because of the usefulness or because of the problem in admitting what you recommended for so long isn't as "positive" as it was once called. To me, the dog determines whether or not it is positive, not the end result of ending pulling, even if it doesn't apply pain. For a lot of dogs it has nothing to do with pain, but it's still not at all a positive experience for them.

 There are a few dogs that I would consider using it on rather than a front-clip harness, that is if the dog will tolerate them well (I couldn't use it on dogs that it adversely affected, no matter how useful it might be). Dogs that don't fit into these harnesses well, because of chest depth or other issues, sometimes work better on a GL, if they tolerate it. But you can get a wide variety of front-clip harnesses now and I think there is a kind that will fit most dogs now. I might recommend them for over-the-top exuberant dogs, because the GL does have a subduing effect on most canines, and it might just be the speck needed to calm that hyper dog enough to listen a little bit.

 I would no longer, ever, recommend it in cases of shy/fearful/underconfident dogs. These dogs need a confidence boost, or to feel less anxious, not to have something on them that causes them to be more upset or subdued. I wouldn't recommend them to be used on lungers - dogs that don't necessarily pull, but that have a history of lunging unpredictably (or even predictably for that matter). The companies mention that there are no reported cases of vertebrae or muscle damage with these items, but I don't believe that for an instant. I can't see how a dog lunging quickly, having it's neck snapped sideways and downward, while the rest of its body is moving in a forward momentum, is not risky for a dog's head and neck. I've seen some of these dogs' heads do this when they lunge ,and even if the dog only has a half a foot or foot of leash, they can still get that momentum for a lunge even though they don't get far.

 Overall though, for simple pulling cases, I think in terms of "tools" that a front-clip harness, will suit most people's needs for pulling dogs. I know I wont' automatically recommend a GL for a puller, and I'll try to find an alternative if possible (unless the dog seems to be the right candidate for one). The GL really is one of those things I'd use on a case-by-case basis.

And yes, in the end the GL, or Easywalk harness, or even choke chains and prongs, or whatever you use, are meant to be used as training tools only. That is the mantra that is chanted these days. That they are "not life management strategies", although many people relegate their dogs to all of these types of tools as life management. And you know, to me that's okay, because they don't want to take the time to teach the dog, or don't have the physical ability to teach the dog to walk nicely (frail older people, people with disabilities, smaller-built people).  I'm one of those people who is not "against" using these items routinely on dogs (well, I would never use or advocate prongs or chokes, personally, but to each his own), IF the dog is tolerating it well and enjoys its walks. It's not ideal, but the world is not ideal, and if the harness keeps a dog in its forever home because the people cannot, or will not, take the time to teach it on a flat collar, that's fine with me, because that's one less dog that is likely to face a needle if we pushed "teaching LLW' on people who just can't or won't do it. So no, I don't care if people use these tools for life, if the dogs' quality of life during wearing it is still high. In a lot of cases these simple "tools", as we like to call them, are reaslistically life-savers for many dogs who otherwise would be given up or abandoned, or worse - relegated to a life short of natural exercise, where in turn they will develop many other behavioural problems that will lead to again, being sent to a shelter.

For me, it's a management tool, used only in times I cannot teach. But that's me, because I have faith that I can,and will, teach exactly what I want my dogs to do. Not everyone else has the interest, or the knowledge, or the time, to teach as I do, and for those people they need "tools" to make living with their animals a little bit easier.

I'm still on the fence about the GL.

 
Around here, people walk dogs off leash (ggrrr) or on flat collars.  A few wear harnesses, but mostly for looks (owners think they are cool or cute).  Before I joined this forum, I had no idea that other tools like GLs, easy walk, sporns, halti, etc were even available to the public.  That said.  I've never used one myself.

 
The trainers and behaviorist at the shelter swear by them, but these are people who have decades of experience training dogs and post-graduate degrees in applied sciences and animal behavior.  I wonder how much of their success can be attributed to the GL?  Would JQP be able to take a 4 year old Doberman acting like a 4 month old puppy and get the same results just by using the Gentle Leader?  Probably not.

 
The only other person I see use one is at our training facility.  She always comes early to her class which is after ours.  The GL is on her lab.  He comes in pulling, fidgeting, and whining.  Sure, she can keep him under control with the GL, but I wonder what he is learning?  What bothers me is that she never addresses his whining and fidgeting and even makes excuses for it "oh he sees the other dogs working and he thinks it's time for our turn."  I can only imagine what would happen if she switched to a flat collar....yikes!
 

So I guess I agree with Kim, it seems more like a management tool that a training tool.  For dogs that walk well on the GL but not on a flat, I'd be more interested in learning why they don't walk well on the flat and how to remedy that.

Kim, I really, and totally appreciate your post.............thank you...........

When Thor and Sheba were young, we did try a halti with them.  Initially it did a good job, but as Thor got bigger and stronger he became more and more resistant to it.  Thor absolutely could NOT be walked on a flat collar......my shoulders couldn't take the pulling and if I attached his lead to my belt he could pull me off my feet.  Sheba didn't like hers, and often tried to get it off, but she wasn't as hard headed about it as Thor.

We eventually went to a prong with Thor, to correct MY lack of proper training in the first darned place.

Had I started properly I wouldn't have needed any tools with either of them, and as we've added more and more family members, I've gotten a heck of a lot better at training properly from the get go.

I have two foster youngsters right now......1.5 years, lived their entire lives in outdoor kennels....never got OUT of the kennels, so they have zip for socialization, zip for manners, on or off leash, and are quite fearful.  I've been taking them out on draglines with one or two of my own dogs and teaching them to pay attention to me that way.  Yes, it helps to have another dog out there who knows the drill, but basically I need to get these boys to focus so completely on me that I'm the best thing in the whole world.  They get 50 feet, but neither one is going more then 10 feet from me now, even when my dogs romp on ahead.  They've only been here since Labor Day weekend, so with work, they've not gotten a heck of a lot of work, but they are learning nicely that walks are for fun for EVERYONE involved.  I can put either one on a lead and walk them to the end of the "road" here (glorified driveway with a street name) to get the mail or newspaper with no pulling.  This weekend we're going to try the walking path in the village.....it's nice and wide and not highly used.  HERE the only distractions are the occassional bunny, squirrel, bird or butterfly, in town there will likely be a few more even on the path.  But, by starting on the drag lines, or off leash "feeling", they've really learned to look to me for direction.

I don't ever think it's wise to grab a tool off the shelf and apply it without watching the video, without researching how to use it, or having a trainer SHOW you how to use it.  Honestly, I think Thor learned the BEST on lead manners from being OFF lead, but that's just MHO.

Ahhhhh Glenda.....another excellent post......

I guess it concerns me to see any tool touted as something that all new owners should have.  I'm thinking that the only "must have" tool is the right attitude.  For me, that's about my expectations of the dogs and the attitude that of course they will do as I ask, once I've taught them what that is.

Certainly some tools are great and very helpful for some dogs and owners.  But I don't see any as a must have.  And ya'll know what a softie I am with my dogs.

Angelique

Here is another cautionary article for those who are considering using one of these devices:

"A Not So Gentle Leader" by Roger Hild

And he spends quite a bit of time calling practitioners of +R a cult, too. Then, he's selling his version of the halter rig. So, I feel confused by his motives.

Granted, some dogs may not like or may injure themselves with the GL, but there is other equipment to use. But I have no experience with those. I got Shadow to walk in heel and LLW another way.

My dog disliked the GL immensely, and I disliked the risk it posed to her.

I also dislike the video that comes with the GL, because it implies that it's "idiot proof" and requires no special training ... just watch a video and you're good to go. At least people across the training spectrum are agreed that a professional should be consulted to learn how to use a prong. My neighbors think that their halti is a muzzle.

 Before you dismiss the GL as posing a risk, or as being unpleasant for your dog, the very first thing you need to consider is whether you have really introduced it properly.  This is the number one reason the collar fails and dogs hate it!!!  This site has a neat video of Jean Donaldson acclimating a dog to the GL properly:
http://dufferschultz.com/

There are also other head collars, such as the Halti or the Snoot Loop, both of which have their fans for various reasons.  But, with any of them, the proper introduction of the device to the dog is the key to success.  The fact is that these devices do pose a risk if used improperly.  They are not designed for any purpose that lets the dog out on his lead many feet from the owner.  The dog should be walking at the owner's side.  To let the dog have some freedom on the lead requires a different piece of equipment.  Funny, but I seldom see any posts about the danger posed to dogs from a choke chain or a prong that slams the dog's neck when he hits the end of the tether, but suddenly everyone worries about the dog snapping his neck on a GL.  Any piece of equipment that you use on an animal, given that animals are unpredictable, has the potential to do harm.  But, we need to balance that aspect with the fact that some dogs are capable of pulling their owners over, biting someone (the GL can be effectively used. by a handler skilled in its use, to close the dog's mouth), or overreacting to the presence of certain stimuli (and the GL can control the dog's head, limiting his ability to notice the stimulus).

As to people thinking it's a muzzle, so what???  Tell them it isn't and why you are using it.

And, I disagree that people "across the training spectrum" think that folks should consult a trainer before using a prong.  I see the same level of idiocy about all pieces of training equipment across the entire human spectrum, including trainers.  

Yes, but this thread is about the Gentle Leader, not other collars or walking devices.

I still don't understand why the time getting a dog used to the Gentle Leader can't be used to train a dog using a regular collar.

Oh, and by the way, I have never seen a dog dig at it's face when handlers use a choker or a prong collar.

Obviously, the desired thing is for people to train their dogs to walk on a regular collar.  How many classes have you taught?  I can tell you that I spend every puppy class telling people how to do it, and there are always the ones who listen, and whose dogs walk nicely.  But, there are also the ones who don't, and who aren't interested - they just want to make the pulling stop NOW, even though they refuse to do as you tell them.  So, the next best thing, so that the dog isn't punished, is to provide options for a piece of equipment that they will use.  With these people, mostly I recommend the Easy Walk or Senseation, because they are easy to use.  But, for people who, for example, are working with a reactive dog - if I can get them to acclimate the dog to a GL, it often works much better to have control of the head for those dogs.  

snownose

Oh, and by the way, I have never seen a dog dig at it's face when handlers use a choker or a prong collar.

Maybe not, but I've seen properly acclimated dogs do very well in them.  If I have a dog that needs a head collar, and does not do well in the GL, there are head collars made by other manufacturers that fit a little differently and work better for some dogs.  But, in most cases, when the dog doesn't appear to like the head collar, it's because it was put on too soon and without sufficient time to acclimate.
And, I've seen quite a few reactive dogs made much worse by use of the choke or the prong.  That's mostly always human error, too.  Owner standing there yanking the dog back as it barks and lunges (and thinks "that other dog I just saw made my neck hurt" "I hate other dogs";)

spiritdogs

Maybe not, but I've seen properly acclimated dogs do very well in them.  If I have a dog that needs a head collar, and does not do well in the GL, there are head collars made by other manufacturers that fit a little differently and work better for some dogs.  But, in most cases, when the dog doesn't appear to like the head collar, it's because it was put on too soon and without sufficient time to acclimate.

spiritdogs

Obviously, the desired thing is for people to train their dogs to walk on a regular collar.  How many classes have you taught? 

None of that explains why people shouldn't take their time in training their dogs properly, looks to me if you encourage the use of such a contraption you are not out for the best interest of the dog, just to satisfy the owner/handler.

I don't see where the number of classes I taught or haven't makes a difference in my opinion.....You can toss your big word "Trainer" around all you want, but I still don't agree with the Gentle Leader, and if someone like you suggested it, and I was in a class like that I would never go back.....how is that?

Just wanted to add, I go to Petsmart to buy treats and toys for my boys and the rest of my lovely pets....when I see and hear the training that goes on in there, I lose all respect for trainers.........