What is a pack?

I don't think the word "pack" has only one definition. I think one human and one dog can have "pack dynamics" in that the human should be the leader and the dog should be in a position of following. I also think a dog and a cat have some aspects of a pack. And the cat should be alpha over the dog simply for the sake of the cat's safety.

But to me, to really witness the full dynamics of the pack structure (as defined by "wolf pack";) three dogs are required and 4 tells an even larger story. That's from my experience.

Without even addressing the human for a moment: Having two dogs is binary in many ways. Either/Or. It's easy to deal with 2. Once 3 dogs are on the scene, there's an interaction factor.Two dogs relate to each other on fairly safe ground. They KNOW their position and there's really no need for challenge or question. Three dogs throws a wrench in the works because now dog B has 2 relationships and "interaction levels" to deal with. And every time a dog is added, it's exponentially more complex.

I don't if that made sense, because I made up phrases hoping their meaning would be clear, but they might not be.

There is also the "pack" that includes the human and if the pack is stable, this is an invisible position. In other words, the human's position is always known and stable. Never challenged or changing. But in packs where the human is unaware of or doesn't take responsible for his position, the dynamics can shift and there's all sorts of confusion and doubt and challenges.

So the word pack can mean as little as 1 dog and 1 human, but there aren't many pack dynamics in evidence. And I personally think it takes 3 dogs to experience the minimum dynamics of what I call a "real pack" because of the interplay between 3 dogs. After that (4, 5, 6 dogs) I think it gets more intricate, but not on the same scale as it does with 1, 2 and 3 dogs.

Just my opinion based on nothing more than my own experience. 

FourIsCompany

Just my opinion based on nothing more than my own experience

 

I think it's a good and honest reply. And it makes me think. Numbers can indeed have influence. I agree with you that two dogs may form a stable group fairly quickly, as long as both dogs are well-balanced beforehand. I make that distinction because I watched an episode of DW where Virginia Madsen and her son were adopting a new dog. A female was already balanced and fit in well. A male was not balanced and assumed everything was his and proceeded to "prove" it.

For all I know, Jade may think "alpha smalpha, I'm a cat and I own people."

They communicate in different ways but get along well, being different species, which is a testament, imo, to the social adaptability of a dog. A real wolf might see Jade as an appetizer before dinner. Shadow has prey drive but even that is somewhat muted into play. He has killed a squirrel, a mouse, and a bird but not to eat a meal. Mainly, he played too rough with them. Since he grew up with a tomcat and a Jack Russell Terrier, he is "socialized" to small housepets. And I wonder if that has had an impact on his perception of "pack." How much of that is cross-species, say in a multi-child home? It's not uncommon for the youngest of say 3 kids to get attention as the "baby." In my upringing, I got most of the punishment and my younger brother learned by observation. So, even in a human group, there is a "pack" mentality, so to speak. I could be wrong. Dogs may very well differentiate between dogs and everything else.

I would agree completley with what Four has written. I consider my family and dogs my "pack" although I only have two dogs that are permanent members. The dynamics do change as you add additional dogs.

 A pack can be only you and one dog, of course with only 2 members the pack dynanimcs might be less

A "pack" could include cats, birds, etc 

ron2

I don't think a dog thinks a human is a funny looking dog. For all I know, they may think we look like a funny primate, which is closer to the truth of what we are.

i think dogs view humans as humans. and there is a long history of dog-human relationships, which were beneficial to both dog and human. as for social dynamics of a pack, it's hard for me to speak from experience because all four of my dogs are dominant, and therefore they don't get to interact as a "pack" would. they are separated a lot and very closely supervised when together. some people refer to a "pack" drive, which influences a dog's desire to belong to a pack and affects his ability to find his place in the pack, and i have seen examples of this in some of my dogs. i do know that my dogs differentiate between pack members and non pack members, even though they don't interact with each other very often. one is aggressive with other dogs of mine, but not with other dogs, and i have had a couple of dogs that have been fine with my own, but aggressive with other dogs. and they were fine with a new dog brought in by me, knowing that if i was bringing it in, it was part of the pack and should be allowed. i do think that pack structure is not limited to any one or two species. if dogs can allow humans to be part of -- and even leader of -- their pack, than why wouldn't they accept cats, bunnies, hamsters, etc as part of the pack?

 I do not think that dogs see humans as dogs, but dogs and humans work well together because of the social hierarchy pack dynamics of dogs. They adjust and fit into human households and they become part of the social order of the household, they learn to function within the parameters of the social order of the household thus the entire social order is a "pack". This does not mean that the human thinks he is a dog, nor does it mean that the dog thinks he is a human, nor does it mean that the dog sees the human as a dog.

 When people speak of being the leader of their “pack” or that the dog sees itself as the leader of the “pack” this does not mean that they are referring to the dog thinking of the human as another dog. He or she is a member of the current social order that the dog exists within.

IMO, a pack is a social group which contains canines. Most packs in the wild are extended families which grew to know each other over a period of time from puppy-hood. A dog has a canine mind which includes the psychology of a social animal. They are "wired" to be social and work together for the good of all in order to pass on their genes. Pack members watch each other for clues to danger, locations of food and water sources, and work together to defend territory and raise the young.

Being a pack member allows one to learn through the observation of others within the pack. This reduces the amount of personal risk a solitary animal faces though personal trial and error. There is also strength in numbers when it comes to sharing information, hunting large prey, and defending territory.

I don't think dogs see humans as dogs. I do believe they try to "read" us and make sense out of us "in dog" with a dog's mind, because they can't think in "human" (although dogs do learn a bit of "humanese" when they live with us). I think it's important for a dog's feeling of security when they live with humans to know "who is who" and "where do I fit" in.

A pair of beings (just you and your dog) doesn't have the more complex social dynamics you encounter with three beings. Add one more being (either another dog or human...or cat) and the dynamics of living together get more complicated. The variables and complexities increase which each new member added, and each living being which lives together as a social group is part of the "pack".

This is where hierarchies and leadership come into play in order to make decisions, keep the peace, and live in harmony.

The first thing I look at when dealing with a troubled dog, is the social dynamics between all "pack" members of the household.

My "pack" consists of two humans, one dog, seven chickens, and a bunny. My "pack" also varies due to the dogs who come to stay when their owners are out of town and my dog and I also join other packs when she comes to work with me.

Social and "pack" dynamics are fascinating!

any social hierarchy is going to have the dynamics affected by the addition or removal of members. a family consisting of a husband and wife has a different structure from a family of husband, wife, child. and with additional children, the dynamics can change. a "pack" wouldn't be significantly different. each new member alters the dynamics. depending on the initial structure of the group, and depending on the stability of the new member of the group, the change may or may not be noticable

Angelique

A pair of beings (just you and your dog) doesn't have the more complex social dynamics you encounter with three beings. Add one more being (either another dog or human...or cat) and the dynamics of living together get more complicated. The variables and complexities increase which each new member added, and each living being which lives together as a social group is part of the "pack".

I liked your explanation and it mesh's well with that of 4IC. At some points, leadership is necessary, IMHO. And it is a numbers thing, as each entity is another factor, a living being with distinct personality. I understood very well your point, as it seems logical, even from my limited experience.

I totally agree with the points on how dogs see humans and vice versa made by dgreigo.

Most of the time when I talk about my pack, I mean the dogs and myself, but there are actually 8 of us as I also have a husband and 2 cats.  

And they're all well in line LOL  

I don't know about your cats, but my cats don't interact with my dogs like dogs do......so, from interaction and everyday routine, I would consider my dogs a pack of dogs with me running the show.....

snownose

but my cats don't interact with my dogs like dogs do

 

I'll tell ya what's funny, though, is to watch Shadow and Jade play. He will run into a room and sniff at her, she will swipe at him and miss, and he will run off and return, to do it again.

Other times, there's miscommunication. She will, in the interest of play-fighting, present her side and arch her back to appear bigger. To a dog, side presentation is a calming signal. Shadow will yawn, and lay down.

I can see that happening

I have two cats though and they hang together when not sleeping, and I think they kind of put their noses up in the air when it comes to the dogs....almost like they are to good for that kind of interaction.......LOL.......

snownose

they kind of put their noses up in the air when it comes to the dogs....almost like they are to good for that kind of interaction...

 

Jades' not. She will instigate, sometimes. She is feisty. We probably should have named her Spunk, since she's got so much of it. She was so young as a stray, she may not have spent enough time to acquire the feline arrogance. She likes to bite, even in affection. She acts like a dog, sometimes. Our friend likes to say that Shadow thinks he's a cat. For instance, he's still my lapdog at 26 inches to the shoulders and 65 lbs. How's that for messing up the pack dynamic, if we even have one. I'm not sure. I may as well call us a funny troop of monkeys.