How Far Are You Willing to Go?

ORIGINAL: espencer
Ok give me an example of  "harrassing my livestock" just to avoid misunderstandings

 
A steer is slaughtered at about 18 months of age.  Many of us small, hobby farmers fatten our own steers.  For the last 60-90 days of their lives, they are generally fed grain and supplements designed to put on a lot of weight in a short amount of time.  By chasing a steer for 10 minutes, a dog can easily run off 4-5 days of weight gain. That is what I meant by harrassing livestock.

And when you say "In the case that a dog like this washes out of its intended function as a hunter, would I have a problem shooting it?  Pass the ammunition." does that mean you would shoot a dog for not being a good hunter?

 
I don't think I would put myself in the position those guys were in.  IOW, I wouldn't raise dogs the way they did, although supposedly they were some of the best hog dog breeders/trainers in the country.  Maybe that is just a brutal business, I really don't know.  That being said, I do support their right to cull their dogs in a humane way, such as shooting them.

ORIGINAL: espencer

Well i dont think a dog should be putting down just because he has irresponsable owners, even when is harrasing my livestock, i mean, nothing that a couple hits with a stick (IF he seems very agressive) cant resolve, at least the dog would still be alive, if the dog goes away by just screaming and moving the big stick in the air then that would be better

After that a good talk with the owners would do, if not then a good law suit but at least the poor dog will still be alive, no need to kill him from the beginning

 
What if, in spite of your efforts, the dog continues to come back, day after day after day, and chase your cattle, costing you money and affecting your livelihood?

What if, in spite of your efforts, the dog continues to come back, day after day after day, and chase your cattle, costing you money and affecting your livelihood?

 
How about a BB gun to deliver a good pop, wouldn't that be better than killing the animal?
 
I have livestock across  the road, I live in a very rural setting, what if they busted the fence came into my yard, would I have the right to shoot a cow because my vehicles are in danger of getting stomped on or rammed?

probe1957
quote:

ORIGINAL: snownose
It makes me raging mad when people think animals are disposable


People own dogs for different reasons. Not everyone has a dog for a pet. For example, some people own dogs to do a specific job and some people own dogs for hunting.

When I used to own pit bulls, I hung out in a couple of forums that were specific to that breed. I learned a lot there and one of the things I learned is that not everyone owns APBTs as pets. There were a a couple of guys there that raised APBT's for hog hunting. If the dog wouldn't hunt, they shot the dog. Their contention was that by the time they determined the dog wouldn't hunt, he was past the point of making a good pet.

To some people, a dog is a tool. You have to take care of your tools but if that tool doesn't perform its intended purpose, they get rid of the tool. Are they wrong? Not in my eyes. There are fates worse than death.

ORIGINAL: probe1957

ORIGINAL: snownose
It makes me raging mad when people think animals are disposable[:@][:@][:@]

People own dogs for different reasons.  Not everyone has a dog for a pet.  For example, some people own dogs to do a specific job and some people own dogs for hunting. 

When I used to own pit bulls, I hung out in a couple of forums that were specific to that breed.  I learned a lot there and one of the things I learned is that not everyone owns APBTs as pets.  There were a a couple of guys there that raised APBT's for hog hunting.  If the dog wouldn't hunt, they shot the dog.  Their contention was that by the time they determined the dog wouldn't hunt, he was past the point of making a good pet.

To some people, a dog is a tool.  You have to take care of your tools but if that tool doesn't perform its intended purpose, they get rid of the tool.  Are they wrong?  Not in my eyes.  There are fates worse than death.

 
Billy, just when I was starting to almost like you...[:'(]   The fact is, I believe that there are some people who have little respect for the animals that serve them, even in agrarian or hunting pursuits.  I prefer the native way of thinking about animals with gratitude and respect, even if we are eating them or using them to herd our livestock, or keeping warm within a buffalo hide.  The callousness with which people regard the animals that sustain them is appalling.  Mitakuye oyasin.

ORIGINAL: probe1957



What if, in spite of your efforts, the dog continues to come back, day after day after day, and chase your cattle, costing you money and affecting your livelihood?

 
Like i said, a good law suit to the owners would do, which in the worse case would take the dog away from them (making him a favor since they are irresponsible for the dog) and making the owners pay for my loses (besides other things)

Killing the dog would make the owners actually open a law suit for cruelty, i can always say that it was to defend my livestock but that would make the things more difficult, i dont know i'm not a lawyer, im just guessing []
 
The thing is just to avoid the killing of the dog at any cost unless the dog was attacking me
 

The fact is, I believe that there are some people who have little respect for the animals that serve them, even in agrarian or hunting pursuits. I prefer the native way of thinking about animals with gratitude and respect, even if we are eating them or using them to herd our livestock, or keeping warm within a buffalo hide. The callousness with which people regard the animals that sustain them is appalling. Mitakuye oyasin.

 
Bingo.......dead on statement.....

I thought there were laws against culling dogs (animals) in the USA?  Only China can still get away with that. 
 
Even if you own the dogs, they actually have rights, "animal rights" I don't think it#%92s legal to kill a dog for any reason.  Maybe if it were attacking you, on your property you can get away with it - or, if it was trespassing and you could prove that you were in danger.
 
I come from a long line of hunters and I can understand the hunting for sport and the good it plays on the animal population but I don't get this dog thing?  I even grew up on a farm were my family (grandparents) had dogs who lived outside and had coupes and where we kept dogs tied in our barn BUT.. I have to say that they were not mistreated they were actually "love" in there own ways.  My grandfather would talk to the ones in the barn all day - while milking and doing work in the barn and when one of them got hurt to badly or took sick my Grandfather would take them up back and yes, shoot them.  But I can tell you his heart broke to have to do it; it was just the way back then.
 
 
 

Even if you own the dogs, they actually have rights, "animal rights" I don't think it#%92s legal to kill a dog for any reason.

 
Swissy, animals don't have "rights". They are "chattel" (property) and if you own a dog that is causing problems OR are a victim of a dog that is terrorizing your property, self, or livestock, you can kill them. Dogs that routinely chase (not work) livestock will usually not stop this behavior on it's own (without caring owners willing to do the training AND keep it confined), but could escalate to chasing other things that are out "running around" (like say, children).
Animal welfare and animal rights are totally different things. The government (law) provides the Animal Welfare Act to protect animals in commerce and federal, state, and local laws protect animals in general.
 
Billy, FWIW, sometimes humanely euthanizing the dog is a far better fate than being abandoned on the road side to be hit by cars, poisoned, or starve to death. I also believe that rehoming the dogs you refered to would be a very wrong decision based on what they were trained to do and the reason their training failed.
While, I could never shoot a dog (except in the case of suffering), I have assisted in euthansia and it's a very emotional thing, but in most cases, it's out of respect for the life of the animal. I could never, however, participate in the "culling" practices, but fully understand that there are some that don't view dogs as most of us here do.

Wow, this discussion has taken an interesting turn.

Billy, I can certainly see where you and the folks who breed dogs for a purpose come from. When I was in high school, I was involved with raising steers for a hoof and hook competition. We'd pour love on those steers, fatten them up on grain, teach them not to fear people, get them good on the halter and wash and bush them regularly. Then at the end of the hoof part of the show they'd all be loaded into a truck and the next time we saw them was as a carcass in the local slaughterhouse.

A lot of people thought I was barbaric and cruel for gaining the animal's trust and then ruthlessly allowing it to be slaughtered for meat. What's more, we often purchased some of the meat afterwards. But some animals are raised for a purpose, and I liked to learn about the process of growing meat. I have this wild theory that humanity went downhill the moment people were allowed to divorce themselves from killing what they needed to eat. I think that people would have a lot more respect for animals and the environment if they didn't have the option to look away and only know a piece of meat as a piece of meat after it's been processed and placed in a neat package on the supermarket shelf.

Anyway, I'm a creature of fairness, and I think if something is acceptable for a cow, then it's acceptable for a dog. I have loved cows in the past every bit as much as I have loved dogs, but I'm comfortable with the fact that some cows only have a short life span because they taste best when they're young. I was just glad I could give a cow destined for the market a really happy 6 months or so. From that perspective, I can understand why someone breeding a dog for a specific purpose might have no problem shooting the dog if it doesn't meet that purpose. Farmers cull old cows that are no longer economical to keep, too. That's life, I'm afraid. In my books, a cow is equal to a dog is equal to fish is equal to a honeybee. I guess if there was someone strong and smart enough to breed humans for a specific purpose, I'd have to be cool with them being culled as well.

When it comes down to it, I don't want to be responsible for unnecessary deaths, whether it's a dog or a honeybee. But that doesn't mean I can't understand or respect those who can handle that responsibility or who determine what is a necessary death and what is not. Humans are compassionate creatures, which makes it hard for us to accept death for 'no good reason'. We all have to come to terms with it in our own way, whether that's becoming a vegetarian or vegan, choosing to eat meat but not think about where it comes from, or embracing the whole process. I don't think anyone from any of those camps has a right to declare that the rest of the world is barbaric, even if they believe that for their own good reasons.

ORIGINAL: snownose
How about a BB gun to deliver a good pop, wouldn't that be better than killing the animal?

 
A rifle has more range.  If I can get close enough to shoot the dog with a BB gun, I will use a shotgun.  I can't imagine a shot from a BB gun would deter a dog from a good chase, but if you want to use a BB gun to stop a dog who is chasing your cattle or killing your sheep, be my guest.  Personally, I prefer a more certain and permanent solution.

>>I have livestock across  the road, I live in a very rural setting, what if they busted the fence came into my yard, would I have the right to shoot a cow because my vehicles are in danger of getting stomped on or rammed?<<
 
I don't know for sure, but probably not.  You could collect damages, I imagine.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Billy, just when I was starting to almost like you...[:'(]  

 
I am too dense to deduce exactly what I said that you want to take exception to.

ORIGINAL: espencer
Like i said, a good law suit to the owners would do, which in the worse case would take the dog away from them (making him a favor since they are irresponsible for the dog) and making the owners pay for my loses (besides other things)

 
And while this lawsuit is working its way through the legal system, you do nothing except keep adding up your damages?  What if your farming operation goes broke in the meantime?  Are you willing to put all your hopes on the lawsuit or will you simply solve the problem by dispatching the dog?

Killing the dog would make the owners actually open a law suit for cruelty, i can always say that it was to defend my livestock but that would make the things more difficult, i dont know i'm not a lawyer, im just guessing []

 
I am not GUESSING.  I KNOW you are wrong.


 

I don't know for sure, but probably not. You could collect damages, I imagine.

 
Well, that is a little unfair, not that I would shoot it.
 
What if your prized breeding male German Shep. is about to be stomped to death?

ORIGINAL: snownose
What if your prized breeding male German Shep. is about to be stomped to death?

 
Just a guess, but you don't know much about bovine behavior do you?  []

And while this lawsuit is working its way through the legal system, you do nothing except keep adding up your damages? What if your farming operation goes broke in the meantime? Are you willing to put all your hopes on the lawsuit or will you simply solve the problem by dispatching the dog?

 
This seems rather dramatic to me. Why couldn't you just trap the dog and take it to the humane society, or somewhere, to be held until the owners find a way to keep it contained? Killing the dog should be the last possible resort.