How Far Are You Willing to Go?

I've seen the episode with Jombee the Jindo 3 times, and this dog was not "hung". I've also read public statements by Scott, Jombee's owner, in response to some of the lies and misrepresentations spread by the Cesar haters.
 
The dog is completely turned around and is now a loving member of Scott's family.

Clapping at Mastiff....[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

This thread has been very interesting to me, even if it did go OT just a tad back there a page or two ago.

A couple of things occurred to me as I was reading through the musings.  First, it seems to me that there is plenty of mud slinging that goes on, from both sides of the fence, regarding training.  To suggest that this is one sided is at best, disingenuous.  Traditional trainers, for example, are often called "yank and crank" and now, apparently, "pro-spanking."  These are hardly terms used to promote harmony among those who might have a different viewpoint than the person who uses them.

I get a kick out of some of the people here who preface their comments with something like, "I'm a trainer."  Big deal, so is my 19 year old neighbor girl.  What exactly does "I'm a trainer" mean anyway?  Anyone can call themselves a trainer.  Heck, anyone can BE a trainer.  The only certification required to be a trainer, I guess, is to come on some internet forum and declare yourself one.  Apparently some believe, once you are so "certified," your opinion on training must be taken by others as gospel.  I, for one, am unimpressed.

Now I don't have any problem with good, honest debate.  I have learned a lot, right here on idog, by listening to ALL sides of an argument and then forming some kind of conclusion.  I don't even know what a clicker looks like.  The only training I have ever been exposed to has been the traditional, yank and crank, pro-spanking stuff.  BTW, has ANYONE here EVER advocated spanking a dog or was this a comment that was deliberately designed to inflame?  Only the OP knows for sure.  []

When it comes to training, I believe different strokes for different folks.

I find it interesting that I was challenged about the behavior of my dogs and the wildlife sightings, yet when I took the challenge and actually went OUT with all six dogs off lead and shared our adventures, not ONE person commented on that .
 
The xray tech today asked how I'd been injured and when I mentioned drag lines she asked why I didn't just use a shock collar.  I told her I have no need for them, that the crew have great recalls and can be called off running anything.....and boy did I EVER get the lecture about being alpha and always in control......

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I just don't understand the purpose of going immediately to aversives...nor do I understand the high on the neck placement of the prong or choker where it is going to cause more pain......to ME training my dogs isn't about beating them into submission or causing them enough pain that they see me as the leader because I'm the one who can hurt them.....that just doesn't make sense to me.

And thats why it does not make sense to you, because thats NOT the way it works, its not about "pain", is not about "beating into submission", is not about "hurt", CM would be in jail by now if it was that way, the misinterpretation of those techniques is what start all those debates, we ALL here love dogs and the LAST thing we would do is cause pain to them 

ORIGINAL: glenmar
I find it interesting that I was challenged about the behavior of my dogs and the wildlife sightings, yet when I took the challenge and actually went OUT with all six dogs off lead and shared our adventures, not ONE person commented on that .

 
Well, since only one person seemed to question you on that....[]
 
If you can take 6 dogs, outside, off lead, you are a better man than I am and/or you have better trained dogs than I do.
 
I think turkeys are different in different parts of the country.  In Nebraska, for example, you would frequently see turkeys along side the road.  I even knew a guy who would catch turkeys, by hand and keep them alive for awhile.  At least until he showed everyone in the local watering hole what he had in his car.  LOL.  But here in Illinois, you are very lucky to ever see a turkey.

I find it interesting that I was challenged about the behavior of my dogs and the wildlife sightings, yet when I took the challenge and actually went OUT with all six dogs off lead and shared our adventures, not ONE person commented on that .

Well, I will comment. It is wonderful that you can take your six dogs out, off lead.
It is also well known that German Sheps. are usually easily trained. Believe me, I know. I go out at night with my dogs, off lead, and even incorporate 2 Husky mixes in the bunch, none of them run off.....I got the pics to prove it:

[linkhttp://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture037.jpg]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture037.jpg[/link]

[linkhttp://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture036.jpg]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture036.jpg[/link]

[linkhttp://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture012.jpg]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture012.jpg[/link]

[linkhttp://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture035.jpg]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/BrushAwayGirl/Picture035.jpg[/link]

I find it interesting that I was challenged about the behavior of my dogs and the wildlife sightings, yet when I took the challenge and actually went OUT with all six dogs off lead and shared our adventures, not ONE person commented on that .

 
Since this comment is directed at me, I guess I should respond.
 
While I did not accuse you of lying (and I do apologize for not communicating my feelings more accurately), I did find it amazing that you were able to see that wildlife in the woods with your dogs. I suppose if my comments were accepted as a challenge that you met, then at least you know that your dogs are up to it, as are you.
As far as the wildlife comment goes, I am speaking from personal experience and what I have learned in my training as a rehabilitator, I should have stated it in that way.
I think that you (as I have stated before) have alot to offer this board and I highly respect your experience and opinions, however we might not always agree.
 
Back on topic:
You (generally speaking) may not agree with the use of "shock" collars, and that's ok, but I do feel that in my situation they are effective when used correctly. It's part of *my* toolbox, along with other things.

Well Billy, I guess I AM a better man than  you! []
 
Actually, German Shepherds are extremely intelligent but that can work to your disadvantage when training.  Particularly if you are not a professional trainer, particularly when the biggest dog you've ever owned is a cocker spaniel with a whole different mind set than a shepherd from working lines.  Three of my gsds come from working AND conformation lines, the fourth we're unsure of but the bitches owners *said* working lines, and the final two were also from working lines with show parents.  The younger three were fosters who didn't find appropriate homes so they just stayed. 
 
From my perspective, the cockers and assorted mixed breeds we've had were MUCH easier to train than the GSDs.  But that's just my experience.  Would be interesting to hear from some of our trainers what they think.
 
I think probably MOST dogs can be taken off lead without running off.  It's when you add in distractions like large birds and rabbits and running deer that the recall becomes more critical.  Particularly with dogs with extremely high prey drive like my crew.

That kind of depends on how you define "running off"! I actually don't think either of my two, despite ridiculous drives, would "run off and not come back ever". But walk next to me heeling? Yeah, not so much on that one.

By not  "Running Off" I mean walking by me, and when called they come to me. I call them with "Good Boys Here", here they are. I live in a very rural area in NC, and we have livestock across the street, neighborhood dogs, and much wildlife. I would not take out my dogs at night and risk their safety if I could not retrieve them immediately.[]

I think probably MOST dogs can be taken off lead without running off.

 
Boy, I wouldn't think that!  I would think most would run off if not trained.  I guess if you're talking about trained dogs with excellent recall, than that's different.  I think it's an accomplishment to be able to take 6 dogs out off lead and have them stay around and listen.
 
We have wild turkeys here too.  They fly into our backyard and can't figure out how to get out of the fenced yard!  They aren't very smart creatures.....

ORIGINAL: glenmar
I think probably MOST dogs can be taken off lead without running off.  It's when you add in distractions like large birds and rabbits and running deer that the recall becomes more critical.  Particularly with dogs with extremely high prey drive like my crew.

 
I agree, or at least that is the case with Odie.  I only turn him loose on the back of the property where, if he gets onto something, it isn't a big deal if he chases awhile before he comes back.  I really admire the people whose dogs have such a recall that they will break off a chase.  When Odie is chasing something, it really is like he doesn't hear.  He is incredibly fast and really fun to watch but he ain't coming back until HE is ready.  My only hope is to get his attention on me BEFORE he starts to chase.
 
Strangely enough though, Odie doesn't give birds a second thought.  It is like he has figured out he can't possibly catch them so he might as well save his strength.  Probably his mixed heritage and crap food.  []

I rarely ask mine to heel when we're out in the woods and fields.  I let them romp ahead as long as they stay on the trail, and they just flat dont get more than 40-50 feet ahead of me without stopping and either coming back or waiting.  Occassionally I will ask them to come back with sign language, and they do.  Now and then I will call them back and back they come.  But, that's just practice to be sure that the recall stays sharp so that when I DO have to call them off a running critter, there is no hesitation.

I'm not huge on making my dogs heel when we walk ON lead.  So long as the lead is loose, I could care less where they are, since it's THEIR walk.  But, I do bring them back to a heel now and then throughout a walk, again as practice.  Or, if we happen to be in town and going by a beautiful lawn with a picky person standing on the porch STARING to make sure that they dont' get paw prints on their manicured lawn, THEN I'll put them in a heel out of respect for other folks property.

Kennel keeper, perhaps with multiple dogs...and I think you have hunting dogs?.....you might find the shock collar to be needed.  I'm quite pleased that I've been able to train rock solid recalls without that type of thing.
 
And I guess I should edit that comment about most dogs not running off....as far back as I can recall, any dog I've had has always come right back to me when called.  And this goes way way back before I knew spit about training recall.  In those days it likely was solely because they knew they were going to be rewarded, in some way, with a ball to chase, a game of tug, praise or whatever, but it worked for us.

Just to clarify, I don't use the e-collar to train recall. It is used as an "aversion" method for training my dogs to not run deer. I know I have said this before, but I guess it's worth mentioning again. My dogs are trained (but alot is genetic) to hunt and they also compete in trials. This means that they are far off from me, in heavy cover, and running in a pack. They are scent hounds, so will follow any scent they find. Young dogs will run deer scent and this can carry them miles from me. Once they are on a scent, it's near impossible to call them off when they are so far away. I use the remote collar for THEIR protection. They learn (as my current dogs have) that deer are not "fun" to chase.
While I commend all of you for being able to train your dogs to a perfect recall (my chi's have a great recall using +R), it just doesn't work in this case (for me). I have tried other methods to break dogs from deer scent, but they just weren't effective for my dogs situation. I will say that when it's time to "load up" they come when called and they always get an "atta-boy/girl" when they go into the box. I don't have any problems getting them to return when called, as long as they are not in full cry, hot on a scent.