You Don't Understand +R

I'm actually serious and I think part of the problem is I think it's cute when they do it. They also get excited if I pick up the clicker and forget about hiding the treats because they know they are there, they are dogs and can smell them. I think the solution is to fade the rewards and give it some time.

My one dog was very fearful when we got her and would shut down after only a few minutes of clicker training. I have had a lot more success with her through leadership and dominance based behavior modification. She is very dominant with other dogs but very shy of people so communicating with so called "dog psychology" has been very benificial.

Our new dog is pretty fearless and curious so I knew when I took the clicker back out she would take to it. After working through some behavioral problems with good old fashioned leadership and discipline (nothing painful or violent) she has become a great pet. I am now working on obediance with the clicker and she is taking to it very well.

I'm a big fan of do what works.

You could use your voice as a marker instead of the clicker.   I use YES!!! myself.

NOT USE A CLICKER! THAT'S BLASPHAMY!

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

NOT USE A CLICKER! THAT'S BLASPHAMY!

Don't be so melodramatic.  I use voice markers all the time, and, in fact, the marker is only used to teach a new behavior.  After that, the only the cue is given and the dog responds. 
If we're talking blasphemy, apparently you think it's blasphemous to use a clicker...but, if you use your voice, what, pray tell, is the difference which marker you use (it could be a whistle or a finger snap, too)?  A marker is nothing more than a "bridge" that tells the dog he did it right.  The "bridge" predicts the reward, which you, I suppose rarely give, since food is probably "blasphemous" to you.

And, BTW, no one screamed at you, so why are you using caps?

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

What about approaching the dog to give affection when it is sitting in it's sleeping area? How about when you are watching TV and the dog is staring at the cat and you are stroking the dog (because it relaxes you)? What is your take on situations like those?

I have no problem approaching any of my dogs in their sleeping areas -I can crawl right in the crate if they are in a big one.  My dogs no longer have a cat to stare at, but "leave it" works, even on the cat at the feed store.  I don't pat my dogs if they are misbehaving, but staring at a cat is not misbehaving - chasing the cat is misbehaving.  In that case, it's all about "leave it - come".

And the problem I have with the +R community is that whenever they hear the word "correction" they imediatley scream cruelty and violence and that any correction breaks a bond of trust with the dog. Those are pretty knee jerk reactions, probably learned through being rewarded for all the warm and fuzzies for talking to each other about +R training I think most problem behaviors can be resolved through leadership, discipline and affection at the right times. It is sure working for my two Pit rescues.

+R obviously works to increase wanted and decrease unwanted behaviors but so does leadership with small corrections. The black and white reactions are a bit tiresome.

If you have read my posts here over the years, you would know that I occasionally use small penalties in training dogs.  However, I try not to use penalties that are harsh, or that the dog associates with me, and I  rarely use  anything stronger than an Easy Walk or a Gentle Leader.  I don't start right off with a prong.  I also don't use words my dogs don't understand to try to communicate with them.  Instead, I train certain behaviors so that the dog has a "vocabulary" of sorts.  You seem to want to paint a picture of all of us as a dog training equivalent of a bunch of granola-eating, tree-huggers (not that there's anything wrong with tree huggers).  We are *not* permissive.  We simply train using dog-friendly techniques.  And, it isn't just "tricks".  We (horrors) actually train sit, stay, and an entire agility course, using food.  And, my dogs (honest) will sit, stay, or do an entire agility course without food, too, once they learn the behaviors.  So, I don't get how adamant you all get about having to be stern or use leash pops (even mild ones).  Are you saying you are unable to learn a new method and get the same results that I can?

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

NOT USE A CLICKER! THAT'S BLASPHAMY!

RMFAOL[][][][]

Anne, I think he was joking. He is saying here that he is actively using a clicker to train his dogs.

I think Richard was trying to lighten up and be humorous, in a facetious way.[sm=2cents.gif]

I'm actually serious and I think part of the problem is I think it's cute when they do it. They also get excited if I pick up the clicker and forget about hiding the treats because they know they are there, they are dogs and can smell them. I think the solution is to fade the rewards and give it some time.

Yeah, it is cute. IMO, it's perfectly okay to giggle, as long as you don't give them any treats.

Another way to deal with this is to use a variety of rewards. Anything can be a reward, not just a treat. Making the reward more of a surprise (oh, I get to go back and smell it! Oh, I get a belly rub! Oh, I get a piece of turkey! Oh, I get to play tug!), paired with making the *frequency* of the reward more of a surprise, is going to help.

My one dog was very fearful when we got her and would shut down after only a few minutes of clicker training. I have had a lot more success with her through leadership and dominance based behavior modification. She is very dominant with other dogs but very shy of people so communicating with so called "dog psychology" has been very benificial. Our new dog is pretty fearless and curious so I knew when I took the clicker back out she would take to it. After working through some behavioral problems with good old fashioned leadership and discipline (nothing painful or violent) she has become a great pet. I am now working on obediance with the clicker and she is taking to it very well. I'm a big fan of do what works.

I am a big fan of doing what works too.

I am genuinely curious about your experience. I had rather the opposite experience--found traditional methods worked really well for obedience and turned to clicker training because I had a fearful dog with behavioral issues. I found that traditional techniques and thinking in terms of dominance really made things worse and not better for me, and that thinking in terms of communicating what I want using -R/+R (another leadership style) was less confrontational--I got much further when I stopped with the prong collar and corrections. I am interested in what happened with your dog because they sound a little similar (mine was probably freakier, haha)

When we first got the fearful one she wouldn't eat if we were standing nearby and wouldn't take a treat from your hand. The guy that was fostering her was really surprised when she fell asleep on my lap during the home inspection and said that was the most trust she had shown a male. She still doesn't like to go out after dark and hides when someone comes to the door. They told us she doesn't chase balls or play either.

We started by gesture eating, a technique where you eat a cracker as if you are eating out of the bowl and then give them the food. That had almost imediate results and within two days she was eating with more confidence. For the week until we started doing it we saw no improvement in her eating habits and my wife commented that it seemed to make a big difference.

She was always afraid to come but as soon as you put a leash on her she has more confidence and will follow anywhere. If I want to take her out at night I can't lure her but with the leash she will go. After a while she does start to shut down so we don't take her anywhere far at night.

The more walking and calm assertive leadership we show her the less fearful she has become. I have taught her some things with the clicker but she is only good for 3 or 4 minutes before she starts to shy away so it takes a lot of short sessions for her to learn.

She was rescued off the street and it took them over a month to get close enough to catch her. I think the same behaviors that we are trying to work through served her well to survive when she was on her own. She has turned out to be the sweetest dog and has never showed aggression towards a human. She will retirieve a ball and put it in my hand, something she learned through voice cues and affection rewards and ignoring her if she ran by with the ball. Not bad for a Pitbull especially compared to all the Labs and Goldens I see at the park who play keep away. The owners fault though, not the dogs.

Because she is fearful I have found that if a correction does not work after two or three tries to forget it. She was allowed on the furniture at her foster home but we don't allow it here. I yelled NO twice when she jumped on the couch and she has never done it since. She knows the dog beds are hers and she can go on our bed also.

While I feel positive "rewards" are worth their weight in gold at times, it's just not the perfect solution for every training situation. I know from personal experience that MY dogs (while very food motivated) will not "leave it" for food reward (if they could even hear me) when they are packed up in hot pursuit of game. They have, although learned (through aversion) that chasing deer is not a pleasure. Being scent hounds that are TRAINED and have the GENETIC make-up to find and account for their game, I'd be hard pressed to find ANY other motivator to make them stop dead in their tracks. I have not had a problem with them running deer lately, so don't need to use the e-collars. They have become a very reliable and confident "pack" of dogs that work together for a common cause. They are not mentally "damaged" or abused and our relationship remains solid.
Praise and mild correction has worked wonders for their recall. They (my pack) will come from far distances when they are called and while it may take them a few minutes to get to me, they will come and are greatly rewarded for their efforts.
 
I guess some may think using *shock* collars are cruel and abusive, but I have had great results and when you are training at great distances and limited to NO visability, sometimes you have no other choice.
Which is more cruel?
Having a hunting dog and not allowing them their functionlust;
allowing them to hunt but having no controll and they run far off and get hit by a car or lost;
or permitting them to do what they were bred to do AND having them safe and in control?
Has any one here ever trained a hunting dog in the field with only positive reward?

Has any one here ever trained a hunting dog in the field with only positive reward?

I haven't, but I talked to a couple of breeders who are into hunting with their vizslas who have rave reviews of positive reinforcement.

BTW, maybe this is semantic, but it's not "positive reward"... makes it sound like it's all about rewards. It's not about rewards, it's about controlling access to what the dog desires, making it come through you in exchange for established good behavior. This involves just as much witholding of reward as rewarding.

"Clicker Gundog" by Helen Phillips
"Retriever Training for Spaniels" by Pamela Kadlec
"The Clicked Retriever" by Lana Mitchell
"Enthusiastic Tracking: A Step by Step Training Handbook" by
William Sanders
"Schutzhund Obedience - Training in Drive" by Dildei and Booth

I rest my case.

Shelia Booth does ScH and other protection sport using positive methods.  I really really really like her book.  Purely Positive.  Her puppy suggestions are great.