I have just about HAD IT

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have just about HAD IT

    I'm running out of options, I don't know what to do anymore.  I have tried EVERYTHING.  I've read articles, taken advice from seasoned instructors, and I CANNOT get my blasted GSD to stop barking and biting me while we're running agility!
     
    Tonight after class I was driven to tears I was so frustrated!  I've tried downing him when he bites, I've tried getting in his face and striking the fear of God into him (No hitting), I have tried Circle work and desensitization, NOTHING has worked.  Bark bark bark, bite bite bite.  Tonight he bit me in the stomach, not enough to puncture skin, but it did leave a mark.  Instictively I just clocked him.  He got it pretty good.
     
    Didn't matter...he continued on throughout the class.  I have also tried to control his prey drive, which is through the roof.  We do distraction with tug, but I can only tug for so long before I'm absolutely exhausted, and it still doesn't really "treat" the underlying problem I don't think.
     
    This dog is just so drivey in agility I'm at the end of my rope.  I just have no more ideas.
     
    And before you all say "Treat it before it happens", how the heck to you treat the problem BEFORE it happens if agility is the only thing that sets it  off?  How do I get him to stop if I'm not correcting him FOR that behavior?
     
    Obviously he's not getting everything else I've tried, but I'm ready to quit agility all together because we're not getting this situation undercontrol.  Also, we've been in agility for three months, we've given each different suggestion at least 3-4 weeks (so, one month).  All articles suggest the same things...removing the dog.
     
    Doesn't matter to him, the behavior keeps on.  It is just not connecting with this dog
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wow Xeph I sure do feel your frustration from your post.  I can not speak from an agility perceptive, or can I speak from a GSD perceptive and you haven#%92t mentioned his age but…  the fact it only happens at agility makes me think he is so overly stimulated with all the dogs and distractions.  Maybe even to the point that he is nervous.  If it were me I would back off agility (just for now) and go back to basics and get him to the point where you can control him at home and outside the home in a social situation without so many dogs and people, baby steps.  And as for his biting he may need to be started on NILIF (if you are not already) protocol.  This will help you establish your leadership.  Work on socialization, walking nicely on the leash and a good sit, down/stay.  When he is at a point that you feel is doing well then try it again.  An obedience class to help him learn how to be relaxed around other dogs and lots of distraction may be very helpful.
     
    My dog knew his basic obedience commands too but I needed a way to socialize him more so we signed up for a beginner obdience class at 14 months old and we both loved it……..!!!   I might add he was the star of the class too being there with mostly tiny little puppies and he was 140 pounds and older. 
     
    I am sure there are many expierenced GSD owners here that will give advice based on the breed but it sure seems like he needs to know he must trust you and how to enjoy agility.
     
    I am curious – what is his behavior like at home and outside the home when he is in a social situation?
    • Gold Top Dog
    luvmyswissy, the advice is GREATLY appreciated, but part of the reason I am so frustrated....is because this dog has his first title already (His RN), he has one leg towards his CD (We are going to finish it in September), he has his CGC, and the ground work done for his TDI.  He is GREAT in all other situations, he has a heel pattern that is to DIE for (After much work).

    We are already doing the NILIF thing, but you are right in one part, and that is that he's easily overstimulated.

    Strauss is 27 months old, 91 lbs.  Big guy.  He will "yell" at me during Rally or Obedience (usually during things like moving downs), but it is NOTHING like with agility.  When we work moving downs at club, I say "Platz!" and as he's dropping he barks, but I say "NEIN!" in mid bark.  Each time I dropped him, his "protesting" grew less and less and less.  It's almost gone now....but I have a feeling that it's going to start up again.

    It drives me batty, because he does not bark while he's coming in to me, but as he's PERFORMING the drop.  This is also not a dog who is undersocialized, he loves everybody, people, other dogs, CATS.  He's even friends with a Chinchilla, a Parrot, and a Parakeet! He's been going to kennel club every single week since the week I got him (8 weeks old). I just have this huge fear that one day during class he's going to get away from me and go after one of the tiny dogs and hurt or kill it.

    I've tried working distraction at a distance, but he won't look at me, and it is not easy to block access to other dogs when your dog weighs 91 lbs. We're going to try more distance work with the clicker training, but in order for it to work, we'll have to stay after our class and watch the beginner class run in order for me to properly clicker leaving the other dogs alone, because I can't afford to stop with him

    Believe me, I am NOT lax in my canine duties!  I attend kennel club 3 nights a week.

    Monday - Agility
    Tuesday - Conformation
    Thursday - Puppy Class (I teach it), Beginners Class (I assist in it), and Open Class (I participate in it). 

    This dog is doing full retrieve work, the broad jump, and drops on recall.  He's doing long sits and downs with dogs running past him, balls bouncing in front of him, people blowing whistles, banging chairs, and skipping around.  He heels with no issues off lead in a class of 12 other dogs,  but take him to agility, and he's a screaming demon!  He even screams when the fairgrounds building comes into sight
     
    I know it's not entirely his fault, he's in drive, it's near impossible for me to correct him while he's in drive because it just 'Bounces off him'.  Our instructors honestly think that if we can get the biting under control (That's the biggest issue...I don't like the barking, but I can deal with it), he'll be ready to trial by next year, but until that happens...it's a no go.

    It's triply frustrating when agility is my all time favorite dog sport....I find obedience rigid and boring, but Strauss is finally doing well in it, and so I continue.  We will continue participating in rally as well, but again, I just don't look forward to it like agility.

    This is not my first dog, but it is my first German Shepherd Dog AND my first performance animal.  The first animal I have ever tried to title, and it has been so incredibly difficult with him just because he's so drivey
     
    I am curious – what is his behavior like at home and outside the home when he is in a social situation?

     
    We go to PetCo and/or Petsmart on a weekly (sometimes daily) basis.  He does his entire routine at both stores.  Full retrieves, heeling, sit stays, down stays.  All fine (That's where we go to proof his obedience work).  He heels wonderfully, and, if somebody wants to say hello...he's usually over there before I can say "Yes, he's friendly".
     
    If there are small children involved, he immediately lays down and rolls over so they can rub his belly. If there are small dogs, he will also lay down immediately, and put his head on the floor and "Crawl" a little, so they can say hi without being so intimidated.
     
    If we are heeling around, and a not so friendly dog comes around, I tell him "Leave it" and he does.  He heels around people, through people, down the cookie aisle, past the cats...no troubles.
     
    At home, he is exceptionally quiet and laid back (he's got a great off switch for home life), but take him in the backyard and play some ball with him, and he really turns it on.
     
    At club, he is the same as at PetCo...he is extremely social with everybody that is willing to be social with him.  He's NEVER gone after another dog "Just because", he only tries when he's in prey drive.  On a partially positive note, he did briefly get away from me during class tonight, but I immediately yelled 'PLATZ!" and he DID drop so I could collect him.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Xeph, it sounds like you are a pretty competitive sort, and want to do well at this sport.  But, IMO, if you are having to resort to "clocking" your dog because you haven't been able to control this behavior, it's waaayyyy time to take a time out.  "Drive" is NOT an excuse for biting.  Many dogs have twenty tons of drive and do not bite anyone.  Every time you take this dog out on course, and he performs this behavior, he is learning that it is permissable, and now you have whacked him for it, which can only serve to increase his anxiety level around you and the equipment.  Quit allowing him to escalate, and practice inappropriate behavior, and stop for a while!  If it were my dog, I would rethink my training regimen, and his readiness for what I was asking him to do.  Suzanne Clothier has a great little booklet about teaching a dog self-control that may be worth reading.  Title or no title, the primary consideration is the dog's well being.  It's important to devise a routine that works off some of this dog's pent up energy, but does not overstimulate him.  If your current trainer or coach can't help you with this, seek out another knowledgeable competitor who runs high drive dogs - but stay positive!  I feel your pain - nothing is any higher drive than a working Aussie, Shepherd, Malinois, Border Collie, etc., yet many are successfully channeling that energy properly. 
    I suspect that you may have a drivey dog, but one that is young, easily overstimulated, and not doing as well with traditional training as you might have thought... Call me nuts, but I would try clicker training this dog - the reward doesn't have to be food, it can be a quick tug game.  But, he will start having to offer correct behavior to get his reward, be it food, tug, a trip over the A-frame (that would be Sioux's favorite - she loves that thing), or whatever.  Drivey dogs that want to work often respond best to clicker training, and it's easy to tell the dog what the correct behavior is.
    Also, I hate to say it, but he is not therapy dog material at this point.  Therapy dogs must be able to refrain from chasing the hospital bunny that gets loose, or from nipping at the psychiatric patient whose behavior suddenly becomes erratic.  I hope you'll keep that in mind before you test for TDI.  Don't worry, the dog that is inappropriate at age one, can be very appropriate at age four, etc.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I dearly hope my post doesn't offend or come across rude, that is certainly not my intention. I think the dedication love and work you put into your handsome Strauss is to be commended. But a few things you had written brought about a few of my own questions.
     
    It's triply frustrating when agility is my all time favorite dog sport....I find obedience rigid and boring, but Strauss is finally doing well in it, and so I continue. We will continue participating in rally as well, but again, I just don't look forward to it like agility.

     
    More importantly does your boy look forward to it and truly enjoy it? Of course its good that you like it and have fun but even more so that they do. If it's power struggle with the nipping and barking maybe this isn't the avenue that is best for him. Is he possibly feeding off your frustration? You said you were driven to tears, I am sure he's attuned to your emotions.
     
    And maybe even though you get bored with the obedience training, he actually likes the controlled environment as well as the structure. I don't know, from the sounds of your post he does beautifully with distractions in those situations but pulls a jeckyl-n- hyde on you in agility. There certainly is a lot more of a chaos factor with agility.
     
    Personally,I feel we should be doing this more for their enjoyment factor and what they do best in, then pursuing something because it is our favourite sport or event. Sometimes maybe they are telling us something we don#%92t want to hear.
     
    I am sure you know there are other areas you can try too..Have you ever thought about fly ball? Or if there are performance frisbee classes in your area? Tracking?
     
    I just have this huge fear that one day during class he's going to get away from me and go after one of the tiny dogs and hurt or kill it.

     
    I'm sorry if this is harsh, but that comment sets off blaring sirens and red lights. If you have that fear, then in my opinion it is your responsibility to not bring him into that environment as long as you are unsure or worried about his excitability, biting, and prey drive. It isn't fair to the other dogs and their owners to subject them to that possibility of a "what if" with him.You said at home he listens well, loves kids, other animals etc, but that
    when he's in drive, it's near impossible for me to correct him while he's in drive because it just 'Bounces off him'.
    That is a scary situation with too many unknowns.
     
    With the dogs barking and stirring up the excitement as they tend to do with agility, isn't that more or less a trigger for him? Much like a snowball effect: he gets spun up, you get frustrated, he gets more spun up, and so on and so on.....Maybe find a method to desensitize him to this, before continuing the agility.Will they allow you to run through the course when there aren't classes and other dogs around? If he gets comfortable then perhaps you can begin introducing new stimuli each time... Just talking out loud and bouncing around a few thoughts.
     
    I am sorry I don't really seem to have any constructive advice for you. But I do sincerely wish you and Strauss well!
    -Best of luck-Kim-
    • Gold Top Dog

    Granted, my experience here is coming from an equine background, but bear with me. I have over 20 years of jump/course training that might be very applicable here.
     
    It sounds very much like your dog is getting stressed/over-stimulated by the agility. This is much like a horse that has learned to 'rush' the jumps, usually for the same reasons. There is one major factor that must be ruled out first
     
    - pain: Is he hurting anywhere now? Has he been in the past? Is he anticipating any discomfort that may be causing him to want to get it 'over with'? Specifically check the joints/tendons in the fron legs as well as the same in the hind legs and lower back. The tough part about this one is that there may have been something in the past that you were unaware of and he's made the association which contributes to the stress. This can happen even though the source of discomfort isn't there any longer.
     
    After ruling out pain, the excitement needs to be taken out of the agility. Take it back to absolute basics.
     
    Try starting out with a low vertical jump. (I'm talking ankle height) Send him over it and then down him. Go do something else for a good 10 min or so. Work on obedience. Once he's forgotten about agility, repeat. If he doesn't forget about agility, don't go back to the obstacle.
     
    Keep repeating until this is completely boring to him. Seriously. This could take weeks, not a couple sessions.
    Add in a second obstacle. (low) Down him between obstacles. Same process as before, go do something else.
    And so on … the keys are that a) agillity is not 'special' b) his focus is on you c) there's nothing to worry about.
     
    Don't worry about obstacle height. Keep it low and boring. Something has him worried, he needs to learn that there's nothing to worry about.
     
    Once you've worked up to a slow steady course (you should be able to walk it with him or slow jog), then SLOWLY start to bring the height up. 2 inches at a time, one obstacle at a time. At the same time, slowly start to bring the speed up.
    • Gold Top Dog
    you've only been in agility for three months. I think you've taken it too fast. Agility is very stimulating, and people want to start running courses ASAP, but it won't work, as you're finding out, unless you lay the foundation first. Go back to absolute basics. The first time I ran a course with more than four obstacles in it we'd been training for over a year. It went perfectly.
     
    Most dogs I've seen that bark and bite at their handlers in agility do so because they are simultaneously very excited and highly confused.
    • Gold Top Dog
    PHew, thanks for all the responses.  Now to address things one by one.

    Call me nuts, but I would try clicker training this dog

    You're not nuts...this dog is being clicker trained, and depnding on the job he did on an obstacle, he is either rewarded with food (completed an obstacle well, but not flawlessly), or he gets tuggy (he did something EXTREMELY awesome so break out the good stuff). 

    That's how I retrained his heel and how I taught him the dummbell work.  Worked wonders.  He's an extremely smart animal...just a bit "too smart" sometimes, if you know what I mean

    His biggest reward however...seems to be tunnels.  They're Shepherd sucking tunnels I tell you!  He's nuts about them!  We ran a tiunnelers course the last night of our beginners class...he kicked butt!  There was a TON of barking, but no biting, and I think it's the jumps that are really setting him off.  When running tunnerlers, he is SO focused on finding the next tunnel, he just follows my voice and doesn't look at me (I'm actually sneding the dog at this point, because I can't keep up, and he WILL go where I tell him to).
    Also, I hate to say it, but he is not therapy dog material at this point.


    Don't hate to say it.  I am very very aware of it.  He's just too "up" at this point, and while we have the groundwork done, he won't be going out until he's 3 or 4 when he's matured more....his lines are incredibly slow maturing.  ....It shows.

    More importantly does your boy look forward to it and truly enjoy it?

    Oh my god, you have NO idea.  After Intro to Agility class, we moved up to beginners, which is held out at the fairgrounds because our kennel club isn't big enough to teach more at that point.  We were the first ones there that night aside from the instructor.  There were no other dogs, just me Strauss and Kathy.....he started screaming at the equipment and dragging me TOWARDS the equipment.  This dog WANTS to work, he has a high desire to do so.  I know it's his favorite thing to do, just from his behavior on the way THERE.

    He doesn't stress for agility like he does during obedience (He gets very fidgety on the long sit, and he shifts hips constantly on the long down).

    Is he possibly feeding off your frustration?


    It's likely.  It's going to sound weird, because while I am a bit competitive....I don't like a challenge.  I am easily frustrated when I can't solve a problem right away. Part of the reason that I'm so driven in agility, is the fact that it's the only thing I can focus on for a long period of time.  I've got ADD and a host of other "Things" going on with my head, but with agility, my focus is just there.  On the work and on my dog.  Kathy, Cathy, and Dave say I get almost Manic when I'm working with my dog.

    I did start out with my Old Man in agility when he was 8 years old.  That was a whole different kind of frustratoin, which is probably why it's also so hard to deal with this dog.  They are at completely different ends of the spectrum!  Ranger would run for the A Frame...he LOVED it, but I could never send him to anything.  He always had to be right there with me and I had to cheerlead him through a course.  The intention was never to title him, just have fun (and we did).  We did one trial and we quit, because of his age and joints.  Ranger was always right there with me, and I'd get frustrated because he wouldn't ever leave my side to take an obstacle....he also hated the weave poles.

    With Strauss, he is an absolute NUT for agility.  I can send this dog to obstacles, he weaves like a freaking Border Collie, and he takes the teeter like it's nothing.  All I ever see on this dog...is his butt.  And I LOVE that...when he behaves.

    Is he hurting anywhere now? Has he been in the past? Is he anticipating any discomfort that may be causing him to want to get it 'over with'?

    Not to my knowledge.  I mean, I check this dog every ALL the time, on a weekly basis.  We do stretches before we run, and we do cool downs before we leave.  He DID fall off the dog walk once, but shows no reservation about going over it.  His Hips and Elbows are getting x-rayed in a couple months.  Needless to say, I'm nervous, but I'm reasonably su re that they're going to pass.

    Have you ever thought about fly ball?

    No...mostly because I don't like it, and Strauss doesn't like carrying balls in his mouth (we play fetch with sticks or his dumbbell).

    Strauss DOES like tracking....but I've given up tracking until I can find somebody to track with.  I have no sense of direction or distance.  If somebody says "Take this flag and plant it 50 yards North" #1 Whichever way I'm currently facing....is North.  #2 I just guess at the Yaradge because I just don't have a "Feel" for it like so many others do.  My 50 yards could very well me 100 feet.  I mean, we can go in the backyard and do crappy fakey little straight line tracks,  but t hat's about the extent of our tracking :-/

    And there's no such thing as performance frisbee around here...which is fine with me, because I don't want my GSD twisting like those dogs do (I almost NEVER see Shepherds doing frisbee work, it's always smaller breeds like BC's and tiny Malinois).

    Will they allow you to run through the course when there aren't classes and other dogs around?

    They allow me to stay after quite often to trouble shoot my problem.  One thing that sort of seemed to help was doing 3-4 obstacles, and calling him to front.  That helped a little...but any more than 4 obstacles, and he'd start biting again.

    After ruling out pain, the excitement needs to be taken out of the agility

    Will that end up slowing him down?  Becuase that's not what I want...another slow dog.  I love his drive, I do....just not when it's directed at me >.<
     
      Agility is very stimulating, and people want to start running courses ASAP

    I don't....I put off running in trials as long as I possibly can.  I get horrible jitters before I enter a performance ring.


    All the suggestions are appreciated.  I don't have any jumps myself that are adjustable, so I'll  have to try and work the problem at club when I can.  I'll try some of your suggestions and see what happens :-)  I'd really rather not have to quit agility if I can help it, because at this point, I'm only doing obedience to see how far he can go.  He's ruining me at sits and downs at trials (Just at trials, not at club, and we go and proof sits and downs everywhere...makes little difference).

    I'll just have to work harder and hope things get better
    • Gold Top Dog

    To answer your question: "Will this end up slowing him down" Very very unlikely.
     
    And in agility, fast isn't necessarily fast. Smooth is fast, precise is fast but fast alone is not. A fast dog that blows past turns or misses obstacles or knocks down rails or takes wrong obstacles in over excitement isn't fast in the way that counts.
     
    You KNOW you can wind him up. Right now you need to wind him down. This will get his brain back so that you can not only ask for speed but the focus that will give the precision you need to be really good.
     
    Besides, reducing the excitement doesn't mean eliminating the fun. The point of the exercises I was talking about is to make YOU the exciting, fun motivating part and the agility course a more minor detail.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't....I put off running in trials as long as I possibly can.

     
    I mean IN PRACTICE. Seriously you shouldn't even be trying to run short sequences after only three months of work. You should be working individual obstacles and working on handling and control near to but not on the equipment. Susan Garrett has a very well-written book out about how she trained a totally crazed dog to do agility called Shaping Success. Her dog sounds somewhat like yours, complete with the vocalization and the good behavior away from agility.
    • Gold Top Dog
    you shouldn't even be trying to run short sequences after only three months of work.

    Well...that's how our classes our run.  Intro is just an intro to equipment, Beginners you still help the dog with obstacles but they are performing them mostly on their own (and the teeter is introduced), Intermediate (our current class) we run short sequences, like jump chutes and bounce jumps.  I can't change how classes are taught.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Xeph, from what you have said about your state of mind, and ADD, perhaps you could benefit from a coach who can teach you some relaxation techniques.  I find that it is extremely easy for a drivey dog to "feed" off the handler, but if you make a conscious effort to be dead calm, that it has a calming effect on the dog.  Maybe a drop or two of valerian on his tongue about 20 minutes before practice would help.  Callie knows where to buy the one with no alcohol in it if you PM her, and she may have some other suggestions. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    What is Callie's pm (I have no idea who Callie is)?  Is Valerian like Rescue Remedy?  I give Strauss Rescue Remedy the first day of an obedience trial because he stresses...doesn't need it the second day.
     
    I'll try to find a coach like you suggested (I could probably use one, and I refuse to take medication for my ADD), and I'll work on the low set jumps.  I'll try anything to get us back on track
    • Gold Top Dog
    Just a few random thoughts  (unfortunately, most of my expertise lies on the other end of the spectrum.  Maybe you could send me some of that wild drive for my badsenjis?)
     
    Exactly (other than decking him) what are the consequences of him barking/biting while he's doing agility?  Sounds like he still gets to play?
     
    Also, you mentioned you play tug with him.  I find that really rev's up the high drive agility dogs, so I'd scrap doing that with him around agility.
     
    I also wonder how he'd be in a private agility lesson.  This would help figure out if it is something about the other dogs that sets him off.
     
    Clothier and Garrett (both mentioned by others) are great resources.  I also would take a look at Calming Signals. 
     
    Is he dropping bars when he's barking?  Is he focused more on you or the equipement? 
     
    Are you on any agility/schz/GSD lists?  I know the sighthound agility list has really helped with some problems I've had with my dogs.  (For some specific problems the list helped more than my trainers.)  Currently it sounds like you might be training bad habits.  [&:] 
     
     
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Exactly (other than decking him) what are the consequences of him barking/biting while he's doing agility?

    He's put immediately in a down and once I collect him, we do not finish the sequence, we go to the end of the line and he has to wait his turn.  We have also tried ending the game with him entirely and putting him up in my car, and I work with one of the instructor's dogs.  That really just seems to make Strauss worse :-/
     
    I'd scrap doing that with him around agility.

    I can't scrap tug...that's the only thing that keeps his attention OFF the other dogs that are running, otherwise he lunges to the end of his lead and screams like a Banshee.  The tug is the only thing that makes me worth paying attention to.
     
    I also wonder how he'd be in a private agility lesson.

    He behaves exactly the same towards me.  The only difference is that there aren't any other dogs around to really trigger his prey drive.
     
    Is he dropping bars when he's barking?

    No
     
    Is he focused more on you or the equipement?

    Me.  He does not look straight ahead to the next obstacle.  He takes an obstacle, looks at me, takes an obstacle, looks at me.

    We did a jump chute on monday...he took all the jumps but watched me every jump he took...he only knocked one bar once, and we did the jump chute a total of four times (once straight on, once with the jumps at an angle).
     
    Are you on any agility/schz/GSD lists?

    I'm on several GSD lists and forums...they all just say to clock him, or direct me to articles I've already been to.  I was on the CleanRun agility list, but didn't get answers to my questions, I'm not on any schutzhund lists because while I do go out to watch schuzthund practice, I am not an active member in a schutzhund club presently.