Smarter than You think

I just had a big long reply but I lost it.  I am so surprised that there is only one mention of this book on the entire forum.  The techniques are controversial but ask yourself which is worse: getting hit by a sock maybe a handful of times for a day or living with a shock collar or choke collar?  I read this book and it dramatically changed how the dog reacts towards me and vice versa.  I am still trying to understand it and am planning on reading the book again but so far, the changes have been completely for the better. 

Juts a few things

She doesn't walk ahead of me anymore on the leash which was a big concern of mine with intersections, going from sidewalk to street, etc.

When the fire alarm goes off instead of running to her crate she looks at me, we've actually closed her crate and she doesn't use it at all

Walks in the woods off leash and she doesn't run ahead or lag behind 

After walks instead of lying in her bed in the other room she follows me to my desk and sleeps under it while I work 

Comes to places she is scared to without me dragging her... like into the bathroom when the tub faucet is running (loud) or into the garage (scary!)

 I think that all dogs require different training methods and you have to adjust your method to fit each dog. However, I would not feel comfortable using the technique you described. If you have reservations then find something you are comfortable with. There are all kinds of methods out there.

I have a breed, husky, who is notoriously bad off leash. I tried to train a recall on her and just gave up because I was fighting a losing battle. So, keep breed in mind when looking for a training method as well.

For my aussie - a naturally velcro style dog - I started training him off leash right when I got him at 8 weeks old. I would take him out with me on walks or to the park (a lot of people don't like to take dogs out that early, but I do) and bring lots of tiny tidbit treats with me. Everytime he looked at me, he got a "YES! good boy!" and a treat. Every time he came to me to check in, he got a jackpot "YES, Gooooood boy!!" and 2-3 tidbits of treats. I never used the word "come" until he started to understand that being near me, and coming to me was a great thing. Once he understood that, I used the come command. So, the idea is to start them very early on just by training them that paying attention to you is a great thing. Being with you is even better (2-3 treats vs 1 for just looking). And when they actually come when called - 4-5 tidbits and lots of excitement. Throw a party if they come to you when they're distracted by something else. 

Some breeds will require a long training lead to teach an off leash recall. I have never used that method so someone else can chime in on that. 

 I agree different methods for different dogs.

We are definitely not ready to for off leash with distractions.  We go for a nice hike early Sunday morning when there's nobody out.  I haven't really figured out how to test out off leash with distractions because the "good" distractions are in dangerous places or it's inappropriate for me to just go "testing" with someone else's dog, etc.  Basically I want to be able to see her react to another dog off the leash (naturally she wants to go play!!!).

Another major thing of the book I forgot to mention is that he basically says dry food is evil.  According to him wet is better and people food is best.  And furthermore he adds we are most likely all overfeeding our dogs.  He gives a very generic subscription for food amount by weight and it concerned me that he didn't put one mention about dogs that get lots of exercise!  However when I thought about it, I would not want to eat the same dry food for my whole life and given their smell is xxxx times better than ours, their taste is probably better too.  So now for example when I eat an apple, instead of throwing the core away I cut out the seeds and the stem and give her the rest.  Right now this basically replaces treats... since I've got about 35# of dry food sitting in the garage

 I am reading companion-type training books right now, because I am really wanting a new puppy, and the time is REALLY wrong. Reading the training books helps me feel that I am moving toward my goal without compromising my relationship with my husband or my dog.

My boxer has never been reliable for recall, and I spent many hours reading all sorts of books and trying all sorts of tricks to make her more reliable. Mostly, she just seems independent enough that she will come when she's ready, and she'll be ready much sooner if she thinks I have a piece of bacon or apple. Now she's 11 and her recall isn't important, because she moves quite slow.

You can still teach your Boxer to come when called just for the practice, even if she is slow!  Take Ed's suggestion and get the "Really Reliable Recall" DVD.  They sell it on www.cleanrun.com among other places.  It would be good practice for when you do get your next dog. 

I hope to figure it out better with my next dog, and this Loeb guy suggests throwing things at your dog, not to injure, to train her to come back to you. Also, he suggests hitting, not hard, to get your dog's attention. I am wondering if anyone in real life has successfully used his methods. I must admit that I have strong reservations, as I cannot quite imagine explaining to my kids that it's okay to throw a soft book at the dog to train her, and hitting her is also okay in the name of training. As a rule, we do not throw things or hit anyone. I am only even giving this any consideration because the unreliable recall with my boxer eliminated off lead time until she was very old, and I hope for something different next time around.

I think that if you want a dog that comes when called, you need to convince the dog that being with you is the best thing since sliced bread.  I have four dogs, and all of them come when called.  But, the reason they do is that I learned how to teach them with positive training.  Years ago, when I was not a trainer, and was using more traditional methods (none of which involved hitting or throwing things, however), I did not have such reliable dogs.  Once I learned to train a recall properly, none of my dogs has failed to "get it", even my comfort-freak independent-minded scenthound.

Please answer gently. Sometimes, we all must be allowed stupid questions.

If you don't know how to do something, the dumbest thing you can do is remain silent and keep repeating your mistakes.  No question is stupid if it is asked honestly in an attempt to learn.
 

pjcampbell

Basically I want to be able to see her react to another dog off the leash (naturally she wants to go play!!!).

Sorry I'm a little bit vague on what you meant by this - do you want to see it so you know how she would react? Kind of get a feel for it? Or just to give her playtime? Until you get her very reliable off-leash, look into some doggy daycares in your area. They have been great for me and my dog (who is very unreliable off leash right now). It's a super way both to learn how your dog interacts with other dogs and to give your dog some fun playtime with same-species buddies. A lot of daycares have special groups for older or injured dogs so they will "play gentle" with each other.

My dog is very insecure and skittery in general. If I were ever to throw something at him as part of his training I don't think he would ever respect me again. Sometimes he gets upset with me if I throw medium-sized treats at him - he runs away and looks at me as if his feelings have been hurt and he now thinks I'm untrustworthy. And that's with throwing delicious biscuits, I can't even imagine if I were throwing non-food items.

Also, as a general rule, I strongly believe you should never use any training method/tool with which you feel uncomfortable. Even if it's the greatest tool in the world, if you feel uncomfortable with it, you're not going to use it properly. You need to either get comfortable with it beforehand or choose a different tool. IMO. :)

Edit: also, dry food is not "evil." Quite a few of us on this board feed dry food. Some don't. It's personal preference and what works best for your dog - don't feel guilty for feeding dry food if your dog is happy and healthy. Mosey on down to the nutrition section for more food tips :) 

 i think that tossing things at your dog is NOT a good idea, and i agree with everyone in here who says that you should not do anything that you feel uncomfortable with. it seems to me that there are so many different ways to teach a dog something, but i figure that if i was in their place, i'd want to be taught in the most fun way. i always try and associate learning with something positive....

i have a jack russell, and she's in puppy school now. the number one thing i wanna be able to do is take her out for walks in the park or wherever and trust her to be off leash and come when she's called. she's still learning, so she stays on leash for now. occasionally she gets to run around off leash with her friend- the newfoundlander- from across the street who has a semi-reliable recall (but our street is very quiet, and a dead end. it's completely safe. and funny to watch hahaha)

i've heard alot about this really reliable recall, and i think once the xmas money-crunch is over i might go out and buy it. i've seen alot of people on here praise it...

as for the dry food issue. i say it's up to you. if you have the discipline and time to make sure that your dog will get %100 of the nutrition it needs, then good for you.... to me, i figure the people that make dry food have already made sure that the dog will be getting every aspect of it's nutrition by formulating their food to do so. with that said... **i WOULD spend the extra couple dollars and buy a good brand name of dry food... a reputable one**

 good luck! and trust me: there's no such thing as a stupid question on here ;)
 

  getting hit by a sock maybe a handful of times for a day or living with a shock collar or choke collar?

I pick "shock collar". Dogs trained with one don't "live" with them, they get trained and move on. The difference between throwing things at your dog and using a remote collar is the timing- and timing is everything in dog training. Unless you're some kind of throwing expert, odds are you'll chuck your item at just the wrong time and scare the dog for starting to come to you; with ecollar, you have exquisite timing and can use negative reinforcement, whereas throwing things at your dog is either punishment or nagging. Negative reinforcement works to modify behavior far better than mild punishment, and nagging usually doesn't change behavior at all.

That said, the best way to teach a really reliable recall doesn't involve any kind of aversive, it involves convincing the dog that coming to you is the best thing EVER.

Chucking a sock at one of our dogs would actually be a GREAT way to reinforce her recall.  Because she'd pick it up and bring it over to you to show you what she had "found"....

Sorry I'm a little bit vague on what you meant by this - do you want to see it so you know how she would react? Kind of get a feel for it?

What I meant basically was that for the first couple of months we had her, we let her jump and play (while on the leash) whenever we met another dog.  So when we wanted to off leash train her we were expecting the same reaction - since that is what she was used to doing and no reason to think she wasn't allowed to.  The problem is that other dogs are unpredictable.  I don't know how these other dogs are going to react.  I was worried something might cause her to jump and run.  So now she has been taught that she can't do that anymore.   All it really took was some verbal enforcement and now I don't really need to do anything.  If we are off the leash and we see another dog she can't hop and play, she just has to keep walking with me and she does.  If I want to stop and chat with someone she just has to sit there.   Play time is in the back yard or at the "bark park".

I agree if you are not comfortable with a tool this probably isn't so good.  With this "tool", the magic touch, I believe the dog can certainly tell if you are feeling anxious and therefore is going to be confused if an nervous anxious owner is throwing things at the dog.

Rather than switching Chloe to wet food which is expensive and messy we switched to the "bite size" which are about half the size of regular "kibbles"  - then in addition she gets a lot of people food.

 

That said, the best way to teach a really reliable recall doesn't involve any kind of aversive, it involves convincing the dog that coming to you is the best thing EVER.

But how do you convince your dog that you are the best ever?  It can't be with a 20 foot long lead, yanking her neck saying COME!!!

 The thing is you say shock collar is not bad but have you ever put on the shock collar and zapped yourself?  I haven't,but I'm guessing it is not very fun.  Has anyone thrown a shirt or sock at you?  It's not painful.  I would equate it to less than getting spanked.  Sure getting spanked was a little painful but it was embarrassing more than anything!  It's got to be something with the surprise  of where did that come from? and the humiliation of knowing that what they were doing is not correct.

Anyway, I have enjoyed Paul Loeb.  I still think he is a bit of a nut but reading and following his book has changed our life, dog's life and our attitude towards our dog.

I have written a bit of a rave about it here:
http://xj.cdevco.net/best_dog/

I haven't tried it yet, but I have ordered a whistle and I'm pretty excited about training a reliable recall with a whistle.

pjcampbell

I have written a bit of a rave about it here:
http://xj.cdevco.net/best_dog/

I won't read it because of the picture and it starts off by attacking someone else. If this Loeb guy is good, you don't need to put other people down to make him sound good.  Just FYI.

The thing is that sadly, Cesar Millan's techniques have become the standard in what is the "right" way to train a dog mainly because of television and it being the only information many people get.   He is very recognizable and people have a hard time believing there is a more effective and more humane way! I think the show is entertaining and I am sure the guy has some connection with dogs but I don't agree with the choking.