prong?

I'm pretty sure that article basically speaks for itself. Of course, we all here are going to stand by our own opinions and experience, but as someone who uses a "balanced" method and combines lots of treats (in the beginning stages) and voice and touch as reward with leash/collar (in the beginning) and voice as correction, I can attest to the fact that both my dogs and 95% of the dogs that have come through our training center are VERY happy dogs who love to work for their owners/handlers. Might I add that we see everything from Chihuahuas to Beagles to German Sherpherds to Dobermans.. it's not all about the working breeds.
 
In my experience and the experience of our clients and in luv4gsds experience, our own methods work for us. I personally find it rather rude to attempt to passive-agressively "bash" the "old, traditional" methods of dog training. It's not about beating or inflicting pain. That was centuries ago, and dog training has come a long way since then and I still find that portions of "traditional" training are a vital part of modern dog training. These are methods that have proven to work. Trainers across the country use them, as do millions of dog owners.
 
If I wanted to share my opinion, then I would tell you that I think the era of "new-age" dog training with clickers and hands free correction, etc is a bunch of horse poo and is really  a great money-making propaganda and I do not believe in easy-walks or haltis or gentle leaders. THose are all tools that AVOID properly teaching your dog to walk with you and LISTEN to you. They are crutches. Now I am not going to sit here and tell you that just because these are my beliefs, that it means I'm going to open fire and tell anyone who uses those tools that they don't know how to train their dog, because I won't. Hey, if the shoe fits...
 
But, in closing, I can respectively tell you that when my dog is off leash he listens to me. My voice is enough of a correction for him when he is misbehaving. The End.

and to insert my age old response...different dogs need different training methods.
 
Prongs when used properly can be a great asset to the handler/trainer when that type of training is needed.
 
I am a firm believer in starting out slow(mild) and increasing the training methods when a dog doesn't respond to those I start out with. Some people want/need instant results and to each his own. A 90lb woman with an unruly Doberman might need a more aggressive training method if she has tried the posative methods and they are not working and the dog needs to be in better control.
 
I'm sure you all can express your feelings and methods without causing a battle here

And I absolutely agree with you, Amstaffy. I'm not advocating any uneducated person just slap a prong or choker or ANY training device (gentle leaders included!) without knowing how to properly use them. A huge misconception about prongs is also  that they will provide instant results and is a be-all, end-all to a problem. They are not. They do not work for every dog. for whatever the reason. Some dogs do not respond to them at all, some are just too sensitive. I don't believe anyone on here that knows how to and uses a prong properly uses it for a "quick fix". They have been educated, probably by a trainer, as to why the prong is a useful tool for some dogs.

Britney,
 That there sometimes lies the problems...many people come here looking for advice or maybe just skim the forum and without really knowing how to use a prong, halti what have you and think "WOW, this sounds like this will solve my problems" now on some dogs sure, it might be fine and they respond to such a training tool but imagine that person with a Yorkie who pulls and pulls at the leash who sees something like this, you and I might know this should never be attempted but if this person doesn't learn "how to" with a trainer and only reads from forums such as this we are doing a dis-service to our K-9 friends by just posting here.
 
All in all experience and knowledge are great when we are talking to each other...it's the lurkers that I worry about

The author of that article is my dog trainer and friend.  You can read more of her published articles on www. fortunatek9.com.  Please be aware that her articles are copyrighted and you should obtain her permission before posting/reproducing them.

If I wanted to share my opinion, then I would tell you that I think the era of "new-age" dog training with clickers and hands free correction, etc is a bunch of horse poo and is really  a great money-making propaganda and I do not believe in easy-walks or haltis or gentle leaders.

Really, you believe that (and you just flat out shared your opinion)? Tell it to my dog... when I was using the oh so great traditional methods she was nippy, hyperactive, and unresponsive. Then again, I was too busy trying to pretend being an alpha and make my dog a mindlessly obedient one (after all, that's what the Monks of New Skete and Mr. Milan told me to do) that I didn't get to see the real her and working on modifying problem behaviors and molding them into better ones. Traditional methods work for some dogs, but others, like mine, are turned sour.

Please be aware that her articles are copyrighted and you should obtain her permission before posting/reproducing them

 
I always thought as long as you provided the authors name you were covered as they wrote them..I personally would have added the site I took it from just as a courtesy

To each his own I guess...
 
Though I can confidently tell you, I have seen Labs, Goldens, Dobermans, Argentine Dogos, Boxers, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Bordeaux Mastiffs, Bullmastiffs, Chihuahuas, Pugs, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, Polish Lowland Sheepdogs, Beagles, Miniature Pinschers, Huskies (I have one!), Mutts and more come through the training center all very successfully! Not a single one of those dogs was mindless and none were ever pushed beyond their limits or capabilities. Many (I should say most, rather.) obtained their CGC's, are now Therapy Dogs, do Agility and some do Personal Protection.
 
So, in my experience, when done correctly, and humanely, it works. It has worked for thousands of years. Call me a traditionalist I guess.
But I've never seen a "sour" dog come through there. I'm not saying it isn't possible or hasn't happened, but I've never seen it.

I for one believe in the ol' traditional style of training. Leash and collar style training is what I use with a little reward style training also. I don't believe someone should yank the crap out of the dog with the leash. To me those people really don't know what dog training is. Some people don't have enough patience to train a dog the traditional way and when they don't have enough patience it reflex on their dogs. Dogs can read humans better than humans can read other humans and when your not up to training and you try to train anyways that dog isn't good to obey you like it should because of the vibes your giving off. What I am trying to say as long as you make it fun fun fun for what ever type of training methods you use that dog is going to learn and be easly trained.

I have, really no problems with traditional methods as long as they are humane and the dog does not suffer much for personality loss. Traditional methods, IMO, started turning my dog sour... like I said, she listened worse, she was nippy, she jumped on me, oh.. the list goes on. I'm not saying she's never like that now, but the frequency has drastically decreased.. and I like to think that I used 90% positive reinforcement/behavioral signaling to keep her that way. I clicker train now, and she learns things much faster than before.. so I do take offense to you saying that positive reinforcement doesn't work... becuase, frankly, it does when done properly (just like traditional methods). Gentle leaders, easy-walks, and what not are no different than prongs and chokes (in the grand scheme of things), if used in a certain manner, they can be effective training tools or they can be crutches.

Just like children learn differently, dog learn differently.  A great many dogs have gone through all positive training programs and turned out wonderfully as well.  Why?  Because it depends on the DOG.  I use as much positive as possible with Sally, but I do use a prong and sometimes a Halti (which both work very well).  She does not shut down with either tool.

And clickers a money making scheme?  They're like, 99 cents a piece, and everything I've learned about clicker training I've learned for free.

I think that this is kind of like the dispute over Natural Horsemanship in the equine community.  In the end, having an open mind about animal training is best, and not every method works for every animal.
 
ETA:  Striking children has "worked" for thousands of years, yet somehow my mother managed to raise me without spanking, and taught me to be a repectful, polite adult.  If everything was measured with the "it's worked for thousands of years" stick we would acheive very little as a society.

ORIGINAL: amstaffy
and to insert my age old response...different dogs need different training methods

 
AMEN.  This statement is something I STRONGLY believe in.  Not all dogs are going to respond to  the traditional, but then again, not all will respond to the positive-only methods either... I really don't think there's much of an argument lmfao...

But I have seen people jump on the ban wagen saying that traditional style of training is wrong. To me it isn't wrong but to the next person it might be wrong for them. I have went by this ol' saying if it aint broke don't fix it.

Personally, I would not put a prong collar on a puppy.  Puppies, IMO pull because we teach them to pull - I will never use a prong when it is my fault to begin with. 
 
I have no patience for training tools like prongs, chokes, halti's, GL, no-pull harnesses etc... And yes, I have tried a few of them but it will never happen again. I think they cause more work than anything and it's too easy to completely rely on them.  If I need to force my dog to work with me via a prong, then I am doing something wrong. 

I've gotta say that I had to laugh at the perception that I am opposed to using prongs.  I have.  I think they are an excellent tool WHEN USED PROPERLY.