Swimming pools - how to get a dog to go in

Oh my.

I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that in flooding you basically give the dog no choice but to remain in contact with the disturbing stimulus. Every so often I do use this, if we are in a situation where I've carelessly walked way too far into a situation to withdraw without further damaging the dog.

Like, I've walked right into a store with my head in the clouds, and the dog plants all fours because the floor is shiny. Dragging the dog back to "safety" would be both stupid and doubly reinforcing of the fear response. Letting the dog bolt would be to expose him to a potential injury or further bad experiences. So, we wait until the dog realizes that the Big Bad Scary Floor isn't going to eat him.

Please note, there's a vestibular response that has to be established in that situation too. That's why dragging or carrying back to safety would be incredibly unwise. So is adding stimuli of any kind. The dog's not just freezing because he's scared - he's stopped because his brain's telling him, "Whoa, let's hang out here for a second while I sort this out, 'kay?" If this happens calmly and without chattering or nagging from me, 99% of dogs figure it out and life goes on.

If a dog walks into that situation of his own accord, then plants all fours until his brain says "Green light," I don't think the term "flooding" would apply, though the end result may be the same.

Oh, I wanted to add - Ixas girl, in the whelping box, fear responses don't develop until, darn, I can't remember now but I think it's between six and seven weeks? It's an incredibly marvelous design - pups develop their ability to process the world around them long before they have the ability to develop phobias. That allows them to learn and explore without fear. Just about the time they become substantially more mobile, they develop the fear responses they need to avoid dangerous stuff and prevent them from straying too far from the family.

So, a pup does experience lots of pressure, and cannot survive later on unless it's experienced that. But fear isn't something they have to learn to deal with until much later.

Thanks for that, Brookcove []
That makes sense.

What I was refering to was "frustration" (fighting for nipple space, from the get go). And I only have exposure to that from reading McConnell, since I've never been exposed to young puppies. What other early "pressures" do pups experience?

Seems to me frustration and fear are two distinctly different "pressures" ... I wonder what a list of "pressures" would include.

If the characterization of me is the price I pay for highlighting the training techniques of flooding and ignore as inappropriate for the OP#%92s 2 situations, then I am ok with that.  Xerxes could have responded directly to my original post question and take into consideration that his example may be interpreted differently by others, but he chose to defend a belief system.  I responded to comments on my post.  I made key points in my post and those points were ignored and discarded in favor of a belief system that was not applicable in this situation.  IMO
 
Below is an excerpt I got from a clicker site.  By ignoring the dog within the situation and the dog freezing for 15 minutes, I see this as flooding in this time period.  Although the dog got out of the situation, it was very risky that the dog would continue with the shut down behavior. 
 
 Flooding  
            Flooding is a term that is used in horse training, parrot training and dog training, among other areas.  Sometimes negative reinforcement is mistaken for flooding.  There#%92s a difference though.  In using a negative reinforcement procedure, when your learner does the behavior, you release the aversive stimulus.  For example, I#%92ve seen several trainers of different species hold animals firmly to calm them down.  Traditional parrot trainers may wrap a bird in a towel and hold him still until he stops struggling before they release him.  (I#%92m not recommending this, by the way.)  Many animals learn to tolerate handling this way, although there are better ways.
            The distinction between flooding and negative reinforcement is that with flooding, no matter what the animal does, he can#%92t escape until released.  There is no magic behavior that is going to cause the aversive situation to let up.  The end is not under his control.  In negative reinforcement, if the animal does a certain thing, he is released.   He is given control over his escape.  Certain behaviors result in the animal receiving reinforcement in the form of escape from the aversive situation.  Remember that when you see escape working as a reinforcer, you#%92re seeing negative reinforcement.

The distinction between flooding and negative reinforcement is that with flooding, no matter what the animal does, he can#%92t escape until released. There is no magic behavior that is going to cause the aversive situation to let up. The end is not under his control.

DPU, the excerpt you just posted disagrees with you.  Xerxes "escaped" (personally I think that is the wrong word for his situation) and the end was entirely under his control.

Anyway, my uncle's lab has always gone in the water, but we wanted her to jump off the dock.  We tried to push her off a few times, but that didn't really work.  We tried coaxing her off with praise, treats, whatever....didn't work either.  We tried tossing her buoy - which is the most high value reward for her - but she ran the other way off the dock and jumped in from shore.  Once of the times we were trying to get her to jump off with the buoy, it bounced of the end of the dock before hitting the water.  For some reason, this got her jumping, just bouncing it off the end instead of throwing it straight in.  She went right off the end all by herself and has been ever since.

So I guess one thing to try is to figure out what type of distraction you can use to get them in the water on their own and associate it with something enjoyable.  For some reason, bouncing the buoy was all it took for Della to become obsessed with jumping off the dock!

ORIGINAL: Liesje

DPU, the excerpt you just posted disagrees with you.  Xerxes "escaped" (personally I think that is the wrong word for his situation) and the end was entirely under his control.

Please, don't try to do a GOTCHA.  I know exactly what I posted in the excerpt and I know exactly why I am pursuing my position.  It is real life experience of seeing what happens when it works, as in your uncle's dog and how damaging it is to the dog when it doesn't.

Please, don't try to do a GOTCHA. I know exactly what I posted in the excerpt and I know exactly why I am pursuing my position. It is real life experience of seeing what happens when it works, as in your uncle's dog and how damaging it is to the dog when it doesn't

Why are you just posting to read your own posts then?  It's not a "gotcha", it's an "I don't get why he posted that except since it clearly goes against what he is trying to argue."  So please explain why you think Ed "flooded" Xerxes when what Xerxes (not Ed) did doesn't fit any definition of flooding... 

It seems like you're reading into these situations way too far.  So far, no one has posted anything about their dogs being scarred for life because of their first exposures to water.  Even the OPs dog likes to swim.  She's posted pictures of him at the lake.  IMO, it's natural for dogs to be near (and in) water, so treating the situation like some big scary thing is only going to make them feel nervous when they shouldn't be.  It's making an issue out of nothing.  We have a nice pond at the shelter and any dog I walk, I take to the edge of the pond.  9 out of 10 dogs can't wait to get in the water, and for many this is their first experience with a "real" body of water (other than the 8" kiddy pools we keep in the runs).  If they want to run right in like Xerxes did, I let them.  If they go in and don't really care about it, we keep on going.  But most times, I have to drag them OUT because they love it so much. 

I have already stated I am ok with being characterized in a negative.  But if you want to join the bandwagon and make it two, then please go ahead.
 
  As a courtesy to the people that have contributed to this thread, please take the time and read the post slowly and you will see all except one has recommended a gradual gentle desensitation program.  Teaching and interacting with the dog is the message.

I have already stated I am ok with being characterized in a negative. But if you want to join the bandwagon and make it two, then please go ahead.

I have no "bandwagon" other than the accepted definition of flooding.  I wasn't aware it's open for interpretation.  What is your definition of the term?

I have read every post in this thread, but not all of them relate to the concept of flooding.

Dave, this is for you since you indicated that I didn't respond to all of your comments, or questions.   And since you suggested that everyone go back and read all the postings I did.
 

  But if you need intention, I am impressed with the fact that this was not Xerxes first visit to the creek.  So the dog's behavior around the creek should have indicated there is a problem and that problem should be addressed.

 
Actually it was his first visit to a creek.  In addition, he was with 4 dogs that he knew very well and considered "pack." 
 
Since this was his first visit to the creek, there was no prior behavior to indicate fear or apprehension or uncertainty around bodies of water.
 

  I guess the difference between the two is the 15 minutes of shut down the dog had to endure with no help.  I always thought of apprehension in terms of time value as a moment, a pause, a hesitation.  Now we know the rule is 15 minutes

 
During this "shut down" time, he was actively processing alot of information.
 
a) new situation, surrounded by water. 
          So he's got an upper body that is hot, a lower body that is cool. 
          There are forces pushing on his feet (current)
          The surface he is standing on is slick with algae growth.
 
b) the other dogs are running and playing
           Do they notice that this isn't earth?
           Why do they leave me stranded here?
           Why is my human on the side?
            I think I need my human to help me.
            I will play the role of puppy, that always works.
            Playing puppy didn't work, now what do I do?
            I want to play with the other dogs.
            There's a bunch of strange smells here.
            Someone over there has chicken on a fire.
            There are people making a bunch of noise.
            Is that a squirrel?  I want to chase him, but I'm not sure how to get out.
 
And that's just for starters.  There's probably a million more things on his mind.  The mind of a dog, especially an adolescent pup takes a while to process large amounts of new information.  It would be the same if he found himself in desert sand 6 inches deep. 
 

  A phobia has to have a start and this could have been just that or it could be pre-existing but misidentified by the owner.  Its not what the owner feels, it what the dog feels

 
I agree.  However there were no pre-existing behaviors, indicators or experience with this situation.  He had previously laid down in puddles, played in mud, and taken baths.  Only the baths were "forced" upon him.  And those are generally given in a shower stall with water from a shower head above.
 

  Flooding is risky but can be effective in dealing with a certain type of fear, but many dog factors or elements such as breed, age, health, etc have to be taken into consideration.  That is what I asked Xerxes in my first response to his post. 

 
I do not see the connections between flooding and what happened.  There was no force, nor intent on my behalf.  The creek was a small part of a large outdoor dog park.  Easily avoided by a nimble creature such as a dog.
 

  No!  I want you to understand that interpretation of a dogs's behavior can be very different and owners should always try to see another view before making a recommendation.  I also don't know if you understand the reprecussions of flooding if you don't take into considerations the elements of the dog and if panic is recognize.  You state what's not flooding but not what it is.  Flooding is risky.

 
I am probably the biggest opposer of flooding you will find.  If you will note that in my first post, I didn't make any recommendations, I only stated what happened. 
 

  Your statement said to me that when the OP's dog freaked out she should have left him alone to work out the situation by himself, instead of what she did and that was to help the puppy

 
Then that was a clear misunderstanding and possibly misreading of my post.  I related an experience which showed how Xerxes dealt with that issue.
 

  The OP also said “At one point he tried stepping on to a floaty raft which of course made him fall in and the darn pup sunk like a rock.”  And your reaction would be a sink or swim approach?

 
My reaction would have been to not have the floaty raft in there at all.  However given that situation, if it's a dog that's used to the water, I would, yes, have adopted a sink or swim approach, and when the dog surfaced I would have acted happy and surprised, rather than concerned.  Why reinforce a dog's fear?  That gives the dog justification for having the fear.
 

  Your response was not specific to which situation, but it basically said let the dog work it out on its own. 

 
I let Xerxes work it out in that situation.  Since it was a situation of his own making.
 

  I liked that the OP helped the dog out in both situation

 
If I had put Xerxes in the first situation, I would have been obligated to help out as well.  As for the second situation, I would have to read the situation as far as what the dog is used to and the dog's reaction to the stimulus.
 

  I know exactly what I posted in the excerpt and I know exactly why I am pursuing my position.

 
I'm trying desperately to understand why you consider Xerxes running into water and freezing as flooding.  By the very definition you posted, and my own reckoning, flooding requires an aversive or a fear of something first.  This was not the case.  This was a brand new experience to Xerxes.  Had he not sorted things out on his own, I would have intervened eventually.  Had circumstances been different, say water that was 18 inches deep or more, or had there been a surging current, or a million other variables...I would have intervened.  There was no need in my particular case.
 

  Teaching and interacting with the dog is the message.

 
Sometimes experience is the best teacher of all.
 
Even Brookcove has said that some BCs will do well with specific types of training, yet will "crack" from the pressure exhibited by working with the flock. 
 
Had I intervened in the case we are discussing, I would have another set of problems to deal with now.  In all likelihood I'd have a dog that wouldn't set foot on or near open water.
 

  you will see all except one has recommended a gradual gentle desensitation program

 
All but two actually. One, if you read correctly related a story of bosoms and treats.[]
 
Any further communications with reference to this thread should be done via PM.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I do not see the connections between flooding and what happened.  There was no force, nor intent on my behalf. 

I am probably the biggest opposer of flooding you will find. 

Then that was a clear misunderstanding and possibly misreading of my post.  I related an experience which showed how Xerxes dealt with that issue.

I'm trying desperately to understand why you consider Xerxes running into water and freezing as flooding.  By the very definition you posted, and my own reckoning, flooding requires an aversive or a fear of something first.

Any further communications with reference to this thread should be done via PM.

Xerxes, you have gone through a lot of trouble in writing your latest post and I am sure it is with good intentions and is accepted that way.  There is a lot of new information to help understand why you chose to handle the dog Xerxes's situation the way you did.  I have no doubt that you handled the situation with the dog Xerxes in the most ideal way because you know the facts, you know the environment, and you know the dog above all. 

I regret that at least for one person, you can not extend yourself to a different interpretation, a misguided intention, and an expanded definition of force.  Is it so hard to see that if the dog does not know an escape route exist, the dog has to stay within the situation.  Is it so hard to interpret the action of the owner to ignore is to keep (force) the dog in the situation.   Is it so hard to see the dog will stay in that situation until the owner helps or guides the dog out (release).   It is not only the beginning actions that define force but also the actions during. 

Xerxes, you are free to post to me or generally respond.  You are free to PM me.  You are free to intentionally ignore or just pass.  I believe those are all the options available for you to choose from and communicate your thoughts to me and/or the forum.

Xerxes, did you intentionally follow CM's flooding technique

 
I almost thought that was a pun.
 

You make things difficult on a continued basis. I put out my example and you called it everything it wasn't. In my belief system, the dog can work out alot of problems on it's own, as long as nothing is threatening the health and well being of the dog. I don't force my dog into situations in which he feels intimidated, threatened, or frightened. Force is key to flooding. What I did was in no way flooding. But you want to "win" this discussion so you cannot or will not see from any other perspective.

I'm done.

 
Well, Ed, it looks like it's your turn. I can breathe a sigh of relief for a few moments.
[]

Back to the original topic, I spent this weekend camping out at Lake michigan again. Aside from my husky we had 3 pups of different ages there. Neiko (5.5 mo old aussie), Molly (6 month old corgi) and Spirit (9mo old corgi). All 3 dogs are just now learning to swim and it seems the older the dog the more sure they are of themselves. As really young pups, Spirit and Molly were both afraid of the water in general but after they saw Neiko going in (he's been going in water since he was 10wks), they started to venture in too. Now, Spirit is a master swimmer and very confident in the water. She swam out beyond all 3 dogs regularly even though she has the stubbiest legs.
 
Molly will swim farther out than Neiko but she still isn't all that sure of it.
 
I used the frisbee to get all 3 dogs swimming and Neiko did go out beyond where he could touch a few times but he was still pretty iffy about it. It looks like he will probably get over this with age though.
 
I'm not going to push the pool thing. I'd rather he not have any bad experiences in water so that he won't be afraid of lakes (which we encounter more often)

Yes, he was traumatized.  Look how scared he is in that water.  []