Swimming pools - how to get a dog to go in

Your Aussie is still young, right? Dogs don't fully develop their vestibular system until a year to well past a year old. We find this working dogs on sheep - they will strongly resist going in one direction or into tight spaces where it's possible to get disoriented, but after a little maturing have no problems with these same situations.

The vestibular system helps you keep your equilibrium even when your feet aren't touching the ground, or when you can't see what you are walking on, or the surface you are traveling on is distorted, all of which happen when you are wading or swimming.

When we train the goosedogs, the younger dogs need constant gentle, unpressured exposure to a swimming area where they can walk in and get their bearings slowly. Some just love it so much they take the "sink or swim" approach, some get over their heads by accident then find their equilibrium quickly and forget their fear, and some take a long, long time to develop that sense.

Be patient and keep giving your pup opportunities to explore the water. It sounds like he'll figure it out soon enough.

Thanks Becca, that puts it into perspective.

I don't see what Ed did with Xerxes as flooding either.

Flooding is intentionally introducing a large quantity of a known phobic trigger. Example: I am terrified of spiders. So I go into a roomful of spiders and nothing terrible happens and so the irrational fear decreases.

Flooding works really well with humans because the phobic human is the one putting herself into the scary situation. Dogs lack that fundamental sense of control when their owners put them into flooding situations. I think this makes flooding less effective for dogs.

Xerxes was water-neutral, and found himself in a pickle. Because it wasn't a known fear that Ed introduced him to in order to get over the fear, it's not flooding.

...and btw, I do think that he did what you should do if you want to make sure you don't *create* a phobia--he kept Xerxes in control and didn't rescue him. My dog had a very similar response the first time he went in the ocean. I let him figure it out. He still doesn't like water very much, but is definitely not afraid of it.

Thanks fisher, I didn't really have the time to respond to the "flooding" thing, and I couldn't have expressed myself as well as you did![]

"Flooding" is risky, but can be successful with dogs, if properly moderated.

Puppies are basically "flooded" with socialization upon birth, and the frustration exposure they get (in competing at the "milk bar") prepares them to respond well to life's frustrations.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

Flooding is intentionally introducing a large quantity of a known phobic trigger.

 
I don't think of intention as being a criteria for flooding.  Regardless of how the dog got into the situation, the fear and unknown resulting behavior and psychological effect is very risky.  I would not recommend this to the OP.  Just as I expressed my concern with CM and the way he flooded the GD, I do the same when presented with this scenario.  But if you need intention, I am impressed with the fact that this was not Xerxes first visit to the creek.  So the dog's behavior around the creek should have indicated there is a problem and that problem should be addressed.  Oh, I forgot the observation was characterized as apprehension and not fear.  I guess the difference between the two is the 15 minutes of shut down the dog had to endure with no help.  I always thought of apprehension in terms of time value as a moment, a pause, a hesitation.  Now we know the rule is 15 minutes. 

Even if intention is not a criteria for flooding, Xerxes was not phobic. If he had a pre-existing fear of water, then I can see an argument for flooding. He had no pre-existing fear. It wasn't flooding.

I am confused about your sarcastic response:

Oh, I forgot the observation was characterized as apprehension and not fear. I guess the difference between the two is the 15 minutes of shut down the dog had to endure with no help. I always thought of apprehension in terms of time value as a moment, a pause, a hesitation. Now we know the rule is 15 minutes.

Are you seriously suggesting that the dog suffered because he found himself for the first time ankle-deep in water and had to "endure" this situation with no help?

I am 1,500 miles away from what happened.  When I read the words "...realized he was *gasp* IN WATER!  He started crying and whining and stood completely still for 15 minutes.", how else can that be interpreted.  I also don't think pre-existing is a requirement.  A phobia has to have a start and this could have been just that or it could be pre-existing but misidentified by the owner.  Its not what the owner feels, it what the dog feels.   

I agree Ixas_girl.  Flooding is risky but can be effective in dealing with a certain type of fear, but many dog factors or elements such as breed, age, health, etc have to be taken into consideration.  That is what I asked Xerxes in my first response to his post.  That is also why I referenced CM video and also the discussion thread.

Geez.  If all you want me to say is that "Xerxes was flooded" then OK.  He was flooded-by your interpretation of flooding.  By my interpretation of it, he encountered a strange and new experience, was confused, hesitant and unsure of how to deal with this experience.  Xerxes looked for rescue from this encounter- what he got was encouragement and his "pack" ignoring his pleas.  (The pack includes the other dogs who ignored his whining.) 
 
So his response was to wait and see how long it took for someone to pay attention to him, which is a very typical puppy response.  When no one gave him succor he decided that there wasn't much to whine about. 
 
To me that's not flooding, that's a young dog, unsure of himself, looking for aid and upon realization that no aid is forthcoming he just moves on.  But you are free to interpret it as you wish. [] 
 
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Geez.  If all you want me to say is that "Xerxes was flooded" then OK. 

 
No!  I want you to understand that interpretation of a dogs's behavior can be very different and owners should always try to see another view before making a recommendation.  I also don't know if you understand the reprecussions of flooding if you don't take into considerations the elements of the dog and if panic is recognize.  You state what's not flooding but not what it is.  Flooding is risky.
 
The OP states "
"I put him in on the first step which kind of freaked him out so I let him out right away."
 
Your statement said to me that when the OP's dog freaked out she should have left him alone to work out the situation by himself, instead of what she did and that was to help the puppy.

ORIGINAL: DPU

The OP states "
"I put him in on the first step which kind of freaked him out so I let him out right away."
 
Your statement said to me that when the OP's dog freaked out she should have left him alone to work out the situation by himself, instead of what she did and that was to help the puppy.

 
Holy crap DPU you are missing the entire point here.  The OP states that SHE PUT HIM INTO THE POOL. 
 
In my particular case Xerxes went into the water of his own accord. 
 
The difference, while it may seem small to you, is uniquely important to the dog. 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

The difference, while it may seem small to you, is uniquely important to the dog. 

 
Criminy Xerxes, you fathom dogs and dog owners picking up this subtlety and with certainty, the dog owner should not help the dog?    
 
The OP also said “At one point he tried stepping on to a floaty raft which of course made him fall in and the darn pup sunk like a rock.”  And your reaction would be a sink or swim approach?
 
If you can please explain the difference, I would appreciate it, that is if you have the time.
 

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

The difference, while it may seem small to you, is uniquely important to the dog. 

Criminy Xerxes, you fathom dogs and dog owners picking up this subtlety and with certainty, the dog owner should not help the dog?    

The OP also said "At one point he tried stepping on to a floaty raft which of course made him fall in and the darn pup sunk like a rock.”  And your reaction would be a sink or swim approach?

If you can please explain the difference, I would appreciate it, that is if you have the time.

I thought I did, but I'll try it again.

The OP put the dog into a situation of which it was afraid or unsure of.  Bingo, instant opposition.  And thus a fearful response.

I let Xerxes go into a situation by himself.  1/2way through he realized that he was in unfamiliar and strange footing.  I was 30 feet away on the bank.  The response that he gave was not instantaneous, it was delayed, and there was no force involved at all.

For the life of me I can't see how you think these are comparable/equivalent events.  Other than water and dogs, there are no other commonalities.  If you'd like to continue this discussion in PM that's fine, but we're already way too off topic here.

I don#%92t see why this has to be so difficult.  The OP put out 2 situations.  One where she placed the dog in the water and the other where the puppy went into the water by itself.  Your response was not specific to which situation, but it basically said let the dog work it out on its own.  I liked that the OP helped the dog out in both situation.  I hope she does not entertain or follow your advice to flood the dog and let the dog fen for itself.   
 
Flooding is very much on topic.

ORIGINAL: DPU

I don't see why this has to be so difficult. 

You make things difficult on a continued basis.  I put out my example and you called it everything it wasn't.  In my belief system, the dog can work out alot of problems on it's own, as long as nothing is threatening the health and well being of the dog.  I don't force my dog into situations in which he feels intimidated, threatened, or frightened.  Force is key to flooding.  What I did was in no way flooding.  But you want to "win" this discussion so you cannot or will not see from any other perspective. 

I'm done.