Karen Pryor

And guess what? I'm now doing some mild clicker training with Lucy, the rottie who lives behind me, through a fence.
 
And it's working!

Before, when someone like MP would talk about training dogs, horses, whatever, in the same breath, I didn't get it. Reading Pryor's work made it clear. It's not that dogs, horses, or humans have the same psychology. But we all respond to operant condition, whatever the quadrant. As Spiritdogs puts it, dogs do what works. She could define it in exact scientific terms, as coud MRV and a few others, but expressing it in common language does just as well and is less obfuscating.

Sorry Ron, didn't see this - been busy with my rescue who passed away this week and then I came down with this migraine - lack of sleep and stress, I guess.

Have you seen the videos of KP working with horses? Neat stuff.

I took one of my first formal obedience classes with a lady who studied under the same people that KP worked with, with the dolphins. I skimmed this article then but sort of didn't really pay much attention. Ten years ago, if you can believe it (my instructor did her work ten years before THAT). It was pretty straight forward. Now raise your hand if you were C/Ting ten years ago.

In that class, we worked with my fear aggressive dog, that I've mentioned before, that would freak out and become a moray eel on the end of a leash if a dog got within fifty feet (I'd reduced that from five hundred feet before this!). By the end of the class, Trim could sit and allow another dog to heel around us with only a foot or so of breathing room, or heel herself practically touching the other dog. She easily could have gotten her GCG or a CD. In fact, she was well on her way to Open work as she could do terrific off leash work thanks to our sheep stuff. She would have rocked but obedience bored me.

Um, anyway, sorry - migraine makes me babble. clicker training. That was my intro to the whole concept. It's funny that I thought of it first as a behavior modification tool and a way to build relationships - I think I still put it in that part of my toolbox. Just like with dolphins, we use markers/reinforcer because there's a gigantic communication gap there. When I get a dog that lacks the normal frame of reference, I'll go to the clicker a lot of times to get things started.

I've been very stop and go on using it for basic obedience and corrective behavior modification. I'm gravitating more and more to a very minimalist approach and I'm liking what it's doing for the dogs. But the clicker's still there for fun stuff, and for the rescues who don't get to do chores, they can learn tricks to make them more adoptable. Speaking of which, it's time to start that big lug of an Indy dog since he's been demoted to looking for a companion home, lol.[]

Just one last note. Page 659 first paragraph:

Hou entered the tank and, after a preliminary jump, stood on its tail and clapped its jaws at the trainer, who, taken by surprise, failed to reinforce the maneuver [which was exactly the sort of thing they'd been looking for the whole study]."

OK, I am SO glad I am not the only one this happens to. The other day I was messing around with Cord and a box and he did a really cute little move with his feet. I burst out laughing and missed my chance to catch it. I coulda kicked myself right to Virginia. They got a chance to reinforce the tail walking move again with Hou 19 minutes later. I've never seen Cord do anything like that again. He's a weird, weird dog. But if I catch anything ONCE with the clicker, I've got it. He and Trim (the dog above) are closely related, now that I think about it.

OK, I am SO glad I am not the only one this happens to

 
Same here. I've read the article a few times, now. The study was conducted in the late 60's and published initially in 1969, earlier than I previously remembered. But I believe it was during the 70's that Pryor came up with the method for dogs, though initially they were wanting to apply it to other animals, such as pigs and horses, both intelligent animals capable of complex behavior. And yes, it does bridge a communication gap. Also, the observers admit their limitation that the dolphin may have offered other novel behaviors that were to subtle and fast to catalog quantifiably. And, if a regular show handler would go over to the place where the scientists would sit, the dolphin would offer novel behaviors, again. If the human went back to the standard spot, then the dolphin would go back to the standard tricks. It was also a good example of reinforce what you want, ignore (don't reinforce) what you don't want. And, like an actor, finding the motivation is key. For example, Spiritdogs has a dog that doesn't value treats as highly as Shadow. That one likes the chance to herd a tossed object one more time.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

And guess what? I'm now doing some mild clicker training with Lucy, the rottie who lives behind me, through a fence.

And it's working!

That's what some people advocate for shelter dogs -using clicker training to reward all those dogs in crates & kennels for being quiet. and, guess what?  It does reduce the noise level.

The process of operant conditioning is in all creatures, great and small. Some are more in one quadrant than another. But, essentially, we all work toward a reward. My biology teacher in high school once related his experience with operant conditioning. This was a previous year from when I was his student. The students of that time decided to have him stand on the right side of the room. Without physically touching or asking him to remain only on the right side of the room (right of the blackboard, I should clarify.) This is how they did it. Whenever he stood to the right, they copied notes down furiously with sharp, attentive looks. When he went over to the left side, they "wandered off," twiddled pencils, looked at their watch. Back to the right side, notes like crazy and interested demeanors. He ended up spending the last half of the class standing in one spot and it wasn't until after the class that he realized what had happened. He had been "trained" with a positive operant conditioning scheme.
 
It is an instant communication that goes below the verbal or even cognitive level, sometimes. And it is inescapable, IMO. With animals that are governed more by instinct than abstract thought, a basic survival need works wonders. Such as food. Anything that leads to food leads to survival. Whether it is guarding, fighting, or sitting calmly, if it leads to food, that will get reinforced. That's why you can accidently reward the wrong thing. Example, the dog is barking and growly. You give it a treat, thinking that the act of chewing the treat will calm but what has happened is that you have rewarded the guarding behavior. They will do it again because it means food. So, as in the study, proper timing is key. Done often enough, the behavior becomes classic or even mimics instinctual, such as the dolphin offering new behaviors to the handler when the handler stood in the spot where the scientists observed from. The link was there. With positive operant conditioning, you can train behaviors not part of that animal's repertoire. For example, dogs do not naturally walk on hind legs. But we can teach them to do that. Using the process that a creature will do what works, undesired behavior will extinguish as a matter of practicality to the animal. While a correction may fix something now, a behavior that is not rewarded will go away, whether that behavior is being reactive or listening to a human.

It's interesting how applicable we find studies on marine animals to dogs, but inapplicable studies of wolves ... to dogs...


[8|]

LOL! [sm=biggrin.gif]

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

LOL! [sm=biggrin.gif]

[sm=drinking47.gif]

inapplicable studies of wolves

 
I find some studies of wolves to be applicable to dogs. Pack members will follow the leader because he controls the food.

Though dogs are still not wolves, they are mammals, and there are some consistencies within the warm-blooded population of the planet that may be applicable in terms of learning theory.  If you are just looking to score a "gotcha", you'll always find a way, whether it's valid or not.
[8|]

Karen's work, area of expertise, and personal observations with marine animals within a controlled environment to teach them tricks, tasks, and specific behaviors is in line with Skinner's work within "the box" in defining operant conditioning (basic learning theory). I applaud her along with Bob Bailey, Doug Suess, and others who helped change how performing animals within controlled (or semi-controlled) environments could be trained using the positive reinforcement quadrant almost exclusively.

This is a valid area of research based (mostly) on the laboratory experiments of B. F. Skinner which has been able to make the transition into the "real world" in certain more controlled situations.

However, this is not the only area of study. To say the laboratory study of operant conditioning is the only valid "science" you need when it comes to understanding or living with an animal, is too narrow a field of vision for me to swallow.

The scientists or laypeople who study animals in their natural habitats, do field research, or study and document animal/human relationships in social environments (whether it's a human living amoungst a group of social animals in the wild or semi-wild, or a social animal living within a human society) will also give us a wealth of "scientific" information upon which to draw conclusions regarding the "big picture", IMO.

If I want to learn how to teach a dolphin tricks, tasks, and specific behaviors, I'll ask a dolphin trainer. If I want to understand more about the dolphin's mind, their language, and read about a social experiment where a human and dolphin lived together within a controlled environment for a period of time, I'll read John C. Lilly, M.D.'s "Lilly on Dolphins". If I want to learn about how dolphins interact socially in the wild, I'll find a someone who has studied them in their natural habitat or someone who interacts with them in the wild.

If I want to learn to train a chimp in a circus, I'll talk to an animal trainer. If I want to get a better understanding of a chimp's language, emotional states and expressions, their social society and interactions...I ask Jane Goodall. []

I think it's important to mention that for every scientist who has a theory that tries to be an all encompassing definition of everything, there are plenty of other scientists who will argue this fact with their own bodies of research and beliefs.

For those who only believe that all valid science is defined within a sterile laboratory or by a controlled condition scientist and not in natural or "real world" situations with their many variables, do some google searches of the following for the "scientific" arguements and alternative theories:

"learning theory flaws"
"behaviorism flaws social"
"psychology behaviorism flaws"

Or, throw in some other random word groupings and have some fun! Just remember, a true explorer is neither an absolutist nor a blind faith follower. []

I don't think there are any studies of clicker training wolves... are there?

If so, post them.  It would be a most interesting read.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

It's interesting how applicable we find studies on marine animals to dogs, but inapplicable studies of wolves ... to dogs...


[8|]

ORIGINAL: JM

I don't think there are any studies of clicker training wolves... are there?

If so, post them.  It would be a most interesting read.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

It's interesting how applicable we find studies on marine animals to dogs, but inapplicable studies of wolves ... to dogs...


[8|]

 
I'm sure if you do some research and do some digging about the wolves (two were used) who were trained for the movie "Dances With Wolves", you will find a clicker or marker trainer who trained them using positive reinforcement.
 
I doubt you will find any studies, research, or proof of any wolf using a clicker to train another, though. [8D]
 
The alpha wolf eats first and eats what it wants. The pack stays together for mutual survival and to pass on their genes. The dominant wolves do not use food (resources) to teach the other wolves "tricks". That would not be...natural. [8D]