Ian Dunbar

Here is an article that addresses frustration. You know what I would do if I were you?  I would find a clicker trainer in my area and sit in on some classes.  I am wondering if your frustration concerning clicker training is not being transferred to your dog.

Debating your own limitations with clicker training is not going to get you where you need to be.  Being proactive and finding someone to work with you, will.  Someone who can watch and critque and offer professional advice.

[linkhttp://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001b/101.htm]http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001b/101.htm[/link]

I guess I am going to have learn to change my body language from saying the nonverbalized NO. That's a hard one, I must say. Any suggestions

 
I think JM addressed this point very well. As you, DPU, have pointed out, the dog is reading your behavior more than your words. Therefore, if you are bored, frustrated, or disbelieving of the process of clicker training, the dog may be picking up on your hesitation and then, hesitates as well, waiting for what you really want.
 
I also believe that we discussed your other dog, the female that was starved before. And the hesitation to engage in clicker training with her is from your misgivings about having her "work" for food. She will work for food. It is you, IMO, that have a philosophical problem with it. I don't see why having her work for treats is any more harsh than a more physical style of corrections. As you state, your aversive is either "no" or a stern look (which is body language). Dogs are always motivated by something. Fear can motivate her to shut down or cease an acitivity, maybe. But what is her motivation to heed you? And if you find that motivation, what is wrong with using it as a reward after marking a desired behavior that is offered or commanded, rather than just shutting down because no stops the activity but doesn't lead to a desired activity? If you say no and she stops whatever and sits then, somewhere, you have reinforced the sit, or it has been reinforced as a rewarding behavior. Dogs do what works.

JM,
Sometimes being an obscure ignored member is a nice safe place to be in because you have more freedom to express your thoughts, ideas, and critiques without repercussions.  I think I pay attention to members' posts and kind of know their experiences, their passions, their views on dog issues, and even their personal stories.  For example, I will bet that Ron2 doesn't realize he has told his "This is my firehydrant” story 2 times in the past 6 months.  I share my current happenings.  I have stated in posts my experience in finding a +R trainer from the Truly Dog Friendly group.  I have also stated why I needed to go this route.  I have stated in posts I have attended Clicker Training Classes.  I visit Karen Pryor site and receive her newsletter.  I keep in contact with my instructor.  I probably know more about specific training methods than some although I won't equate myself with others.  Don't you see from my post that I go beyond the traditional acceptance of information in a teacher-student classroom setting.  To me, information, knowledge, and learning flows both ways.  I will read CM, McConnell, Pryor, Coppinger, and et al and reconcile with my real life observations.  I will create modifying conventions against prevailing principles and standards.  Modifying conventions is an Accounting term that allows applying a common sense approach to principles and professional standards.  It is art of GAAP. 

JM, I think it is arrogant of man to think that emotions or energy only flows down the leash to the dog.  I would think an Electrician would tell you that energy moves away from the source and it is the receptor that determines what to do with that energy, if anything.  Ignoring the dog's frustration signal while doing training is one thing while using harsh correction methods and having the dog shut down is another thing.  You feel for the latter and not the former, Why?

Ron2, In a couple of my posts, I did bring up my concerns using Clicker Training and tapping into the dog's basic instinctual survival drive.  I felt that before beginning Clicker Training, certain basic need levels have to be satisfied and diminished or made less important in favor of higher needs.  Now you know why I think knowing the needs and the priority of the need is important in rehab solutions and also in training.  I don't recall a response or even a discussion.  My comment was ignored but I am glad you read my posts and even happier you remember it.  And you know, I hope you can see that all my dots are connected.  I have no problem adding or deleting the dots but at the end of the day, they all must be reconnected.

I will bet that Ron2 doesn't realize he has told his "This is my firehydrant” story 2 times in the past 6 months.

No, but I have you to keep track of it.[] Shall I tell it once more? Just kidding.

If we "ignore" you, that's wrong. If we pay attention and raise questions in our attempt to dialog, then you wish for a less conspicuous place.Yet, you can point out our foibles or perceived "failure" to communicate something or redefine something in clicker training and expect it to be so. That is, you constantly task us on something and when the favor is returned, it doesn't sit so well. How many times did you grouse because we failed to respond in a way suitable to you about your GD's problem and how that made us somehow wrong or bad and whatever we were, it wasn't in a good light, in your estimation? Kind of like when I was growing up. Constant correction and rarely a reward. That's why I can ignore a compliment. I was raised with constant correction, never-ending. I will do this or the beatings and diatribes will continue forever, amen. In furthering the analogy that the constant debating of what I say would be a correction, or that your differing opinion might serve as a correction, the correction is not working so well, is it?[]

But, we're getting away from the original purpose of this thread, which is to show that positive operant conditioning folks, such as Dunbar, do have ways of handling problem dogs and that it is innacurate to assume that all +R folks just euthanize when the going gets tough. That Dunbar, a major proponent in +R has specifically worked with problem dogs as stated in his bio. No, I don't have an extensive treatise his exact methods or actual case histories and, on short notice, found his interview in not only how he handled some growly, defensive dogs, but also his view that much of dog-dog aggression is misidentified, or maybe, misquantified as to severity or importance.

Interesting what you chose to comment on from my post.  The least important and filler information telling you a little bit about myself.  That is what you can not change but you choose to comment on that instead of

-          dogs reading human emotions/energy and humans reading dog's emotions/energy
-         Is there frustration when a treat is withheld and do humans just ignore it
-         The important of knowing the need associated with behavior problems
-         Are measured corrections ok to use in order to teach a dog coping mechanism for realities of life, both positive and negative

I work in a university environment where the air is thick with learning, questioning, and creativity.  This forum is good place with dog knowledgeable people and a great place to get references.  An excellent place to get a basic understanding of theory but falls short when an attempt is made to discuss real life application and way too sensitive to hear critiques on methods.  This group just may not be my crowd to best learn about the dog. I may not have the right social skills when I talk with people that are firm and unshakeable in their beliefs for a particular method or principle.  So I guess we go merrily on our way.  Ron2, continues to focus on the unimportant as a distraction to avoid talking about substantive critiques on dog methods.  DPU, continuing to mention his unanswered/unaddressed concerns.  Nothing will change.

Back to topic.  I got red inked because I felt the link did not support your OP writing and was useless other than to serve as a promo for Dunbar's lecture circuit.  The subsequent links is all I have to work with in giving Dunbar credibility for using +R only in dealing with aggressive dogs.  I still have an outstanding question to the OP.  Do you agree with Dunbar advise to ignore the aggressive happening behavior or will you intervene to stop the behavior and how. 

Ron2, continues to focus on the unimportant as a distraction to avoid talking about substantive critiques on dog methods

You, know, it's kind of funny. My reply that you're replying to was a bit more damning but I edited it to lighten it up.

Since you are so much smarter than the rest of us (And believe me, I've met people smarter, and younger, than me so it's not an offense. By that, I mean, they had as much trade knowledge as I have at a much younger age, which makes them smarter than me, IMHO), why don't you tell us all what it means? From what I've read of Dunbar, there would be some management of the dog, such as a muzzle. But, generally, the idea is to not reward the aggressive behavior. Behavior that is not rewarded tends to extinguish. I take a more proactive approach. When possible, I reward calm behavior in public. I reward obedience performed in public. The more I do this, the more it becomes a part of his life. I don't expect my dog to get along with every dog. They don't have union cards, as it were. So, no, I guess I don't specifically ignore aggressive behavior, but like Dunbar, not all seemingly aggressive behavior is not a true aggression. Sometimes, it's actually fear and a lunge may be out of a need for defense. But I still expect obedience and I will still manage the environment, if possible. And I will strive to not reward aggressive behavior. All of our training is often counter to the instincts of a dog, except for the fact that a dog will follow a leader it trusts. As others have said, a dog does what works, even if its aggression. But they can also be conditioned.

Related to this thread, what problem do you have with Dunbar? Other than the fact that there's not a couple of seasons of video of him working with problem dogs.
 
ETA:
I just re-read the thread and I did answer your question in an earlier response, it just wasn't good enough for you.
 

Constant correction and rarely a reward.

Careful, now.  That could lead to "shut down", and no one will be responding to the ever increasing criteria that are being set for the posters.  []

This came up in another clicker thread. I think it is a personal choice whether you put your dog through the frustration or not.  I choose not to at this point.


[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=313319]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=313319[/link]

Also, clicker training itself is a personal choice.  If  it is not working for you nor your dog, why continue?  Just say 'it's not for me' and move on to something else.

  Ignoring the dog's frustration signal while doing training is one thing while using harsh correction methods and having the dog shut down is another thing.  You feel for the latter and not the former, Why?

Unfortunately, during Clicker Training, Marvin exhibits behavior representing frustration when he does not offer the right behavior right away.

 
you need to make it easier for Marvin to succeed, you're probably "uping" your criteria too rapidly, or perhaps your timing is a bit off?  clicker training is an art, a physical skill you have to practice. Can you get a human volunteer to practice your clicker training on?   great way to get feedback on what you might not be doing quite right.

That's pretty much what I gathered when going through the frustration  aspect.

It wasn't the dog...it was me.

 The frustration/stress could very well be coming from not understanding what the human wants more than not getting a treat.

Careful, now. That could lead to "shut down", and no one will be responding to the ever increasing criteria that are being set for the posters

 
True, if one were to liken the ever increasing criteria to delaying a reward in shaping or even standard training, it would be inappropriate as an unending delay is not reinforcing. Pretty soon, the dog just lays down and waits, or goes off and does something else.

Excellent points from both you and Mud Puppy.It goes along with not waiting to too long to give a reward. As someone has pointed out, if we withhold the reward long enough for the dog to get frustrated or down, then we need to reevaluate and "recalibrate," so to speak. Redefine what it is we're looking for and reward approximate behaviors that can eventually lead to the desired shaped end. OTOH, standard training with a clicker has been a breeze for us. Shadow and I both have the timing down pretty good for that and it's easy for him.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

you need to make it easier for Marvin to succeed, you're probably "uping" your criteria too rapidly, or perhaps your timing is a bit off?  clicker training is an art, a physical skill you have to practice. Can you get a human volunteer to practice your clicker training on?   great way to get feedback on what you might not be doing quite right.

Ron2, I am beginning to think that you are the "kill the messenger" type.  I get no credit for being part of the chain that ends up with rewards for others.

Just so you know, in Clicker Class we did practice on each other.

As I mention in other posts, I freely admit I am a lousy clicker trainer with timing off and sensitive to my observations of the dog's emotional state.  Sometimes I am good at it and sometimes I am not.  Absolutely right, withholding a treat for a lengthy time can be erceived as  teasing and teasing does cause frustration.  I understand that.  But the dog defines what is frustrating and what is not.  The dog defines what the time should be.  What I don't understand is that when it does become frustration and since the dog has equated withholding the treat with the emotional response of frustration, is the dog ruined?  A larger question for me is what does withholding a treat mean with respect to drive and what dog emotion and need level is tapped.  A frustrated dog will give me the behavior I want because of avoidance.  That is not what I want.

Added:  Ooops, forgot...Thank you Mudpuppy, thank you JM.

Ron2, I am beginning to think that you are the "kill the messenger" type. I get no credit for being part of the chain that ends up with rewards for others

 
[sm=asking03.gif]
 
That sounded personal.
 

I actually popped in here to ask about Ian Dunbar, and laughed when I saw the title of this thread.. 
 
I got a couple of his videos from the library ('Fighting' and 'Biting'), and was wondering about something. In the 'Fighting' video, he suggests yelling very loudly if dog start fighting. I've gotten the idea from other things I've read that yelling is the LAST thing you want to do, that it'll just escalate the problem, so I was quite surprised at his suggestion. What do you all think?
 
And I was kind of disppointed with the Biting video. It's mostly about preventing puppies from becoming aggressive, and about how to treat aggression towards the owner. The first ship has long since sailed for Cherokee, and she's not at ALL aggressive towards me. There wasn't enough about how to treat stranger-aggressive dogs, IMO.