Ian Dunbar

Lots of "bad" behaviors have been handled, successfully, too, through +R work. My own dog is a great example of that working--this approach was far more beneficial than my CM class, taken twice, ever was.
 
So, the only thing I can disagree with you on is your taste for catfish. []

disagree with you on is your taste for catfish.

 
My BIL has a great recipe for that where the dipping sauce, prior to breading, contains mustard.
 
 

I caught a bunch of catfish yesterday. I don't eat them though.

I guess we can add Dunbar to the list of those who can work with aggressive dogs using +R...even though we repeatedly hear that it can't be done.

ORIGINAL: ron2

disagree with you on is your taste for catfish.

My BIL has a great recipe for that where the dipping sauce, prior to breading, contains mustard.

I'm not sure where you're located, JM, but here in Idaho and Washington, most people think of catfish as bottom dwellers. I work at a corporation where people from all over come to work and our cafeteria has catfish on occasion.
 
I'm working up to trying it but the idea of their whiskers and what they eat, on the bottom of the lakes, gives me the heebie jeebies. []
 
I liked reading about McConnell's work with aggressive (esp fear aggressive dogs, who can be unpredictable) dogs. And she likes Dunbar, of course. []

Removed for personal content

When it comes to an aggressive dog, my home is a pretty good environment for such a dog and my rescue org sends them my way.  I have mind strength and a very powerful and stable pack.

Now with Marvin, he is a different story.  Has made progress in leaps and bound using the most gentle methods.  But this guy has a way to go.  Today, while at a visit to the vet office, Marvin was left in the car alone.  He doesn't do too well alone in the car.  So I can see from the vet's office window, the wipers are going, the emergency flashes are on (click click click), the horn is blowing, and Marvin is barking up a storm.  I wonder how Ian would change this behavior using the Clicker.  I am not asking for help or directions.  I will figure this out on my own and in time will succeed.  Just thought I would make the point that there are other behavior issues other than biting that can be a challenge.
 
Added:  I don't understand the red editing.  I asked the OP what the purpose of the link was.  I expected to find detail of how Ian Dunbar deals with biting dogs.

Dunbar's specialty is in puppy training. This link, on his Sirius Dog Training site, has nice pdfs of some behavior issues:http://www.siriuspup.com/behavior_problems.html

asked the OP what the purpose of the link was

 
The purpose of the link was to show that Dunbar hs dealt with aggressive or challenging dogs. Im another thread, it was suggested that dog-friendly trainers will help you justify euthanizing your problem dog. I wanted to counteract that notion without appearing contentious in that thread. For example, nowhere in the mission statement of the APDT does it mention euthanizing all dogs that don't just immediately respond to a clicker.
 
Yet, we discussed other methods, such as Koehler and Leerburg where some correction methods may include hanging a dog until almost dead. Of course, one could accidently hang too long and cause death. This is not, IMHO, better than Sodium Pentathol. Other dog friendly methods do include medication, at least for a while, until better reponses can be trained, if possible.
 
It is financially and logistically impossible to save every dog out there. Some people, myself included, are not against the idea of euthanasia for seemingly lost causes. And I felt that way before I tried clicker training, BTW. But I wouldn't assume that my personal belief is part of the raison d'ete of the APDT.

ORIGINAL: ron2

The purpose of the link was to show that Dunbar hs dealt with aggressive or challenging dogs.

 

My commentary is on the link.  The link does make the statement that says Dunbar effectively has dealt with biting dogs and so have I.  Maybe our methods are different, I don't know because there was no specifics in the link. 

Oh, and this is interesting (http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/plan_b.htm ):

Balanced training is about 15% more effective, is considerably more efficient with faster results and has a far better track record for producing the changes necessary to allow the dog to remain in his home.

The statistics I cited above are from a lecture given to a Toronto audience in the early 1990's by Dr. Ian Dunbar. (I refer to Dr. Dunbar because these days he is so highly regarded by many in the PP movement who view him as the vanguard of the "dog-friendly" training concept.) He stated that the most effective training occurs when positive rewards are combined with positive punishment (i.e., praise/reward combined with correction/punishment). He said that under controlled testing for reliability, when positive only methods were used the reliability factor could be brought no higher than the low to mid 80% range (ranged between 83 – 85%). He went on to say when appropriately timed punishments were added, the reliability increased by 12-14% to a maximum of 97%. He said that no one was able to observe a 100% reliable response, i.e., perfect on all aspects of the tests under a wide range of varying circumstances.

And so we arrive back to the same old arguement.
Back to the punishment definition...Punishment (wikipedia)  is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted or disobedient behavior.

My dog finds it "unpleasant" if I remove him from a situation that he is enjoying....like chasing the neighborhood cats...therefore that is punishment in his book....therefore I am "balanced".

"He stated that the most effective training occurs when positive rewards are combined with positive punishment (i.e., praise/reward combined with correction/punishment)."

My dog finds it "unpleasant" if I remove him from a situation that he is enjoying

 
As I have learned, that would be -P, the removal of something rewarding in order to decrease a behavior.

Oh, and this is interesting

 
I've read that page, too. It's interesting and possibly somewhat accurate even though there is no actual text to quote from. It simply states it's from a lecture in the 90's. But, stipulating that it's accurate, there is a difference between Dunbar's methods and those of more physical styles.

well okay then...I did scruff him twice...back in my tv days, does that count?  I don't want to go around being all unbalanced and such

ORIGINAL: ron2

My dog finds it "unpleasant" if I remove him from a situation that he is enjoying

As I have learned, that would be -P, the removal of something rewarding in order to decrease a behavior.

From the dropping lables thread, it seemed more appropriate to respond here:

ORIGINAL: ron2
are you implying that a dirty little secret for Dunbar is that one guy says he talked about a balance of punishment and reward back in the 90's? Now, I want to research and see if there are another sources of that besides that one page.

ETA:

Here are some words from the man himself.
[linkhttp://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm]http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm[/link]
[linkhttp://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/whycant.htm]http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/whycant.htm[/link]

Hi Ron,

I am just studying Dunbar myself. He's interesting, a pioneer in many ways. I have yet to see an article that talks about his work with aggressive dogs. I was interested to read the Hild article, that implies his advocating a balanced approach. Ron, I'd be happy to share Dunbar stuff I find here, I'd be most appreciative if you'd share what you find, too!

This article is what got me curious about Dunbar.http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL He's called the anti-Millan, but I have yet to figure out exactly why. Millan works mostly with aggro dogs, Dunbar is best known for his work with puppies. I know controversy sells papers ... well, it will be interesting to learn more!

I'm not sure how to relate those clicker solutions links to Dunbar.