Dropping the Labels - Long (Caution!)

Poor Moose.   That is exactly how I see it all going down.  []

ORIGINAL: ron2

I couldn't figure out the intent of your post.

I can be a happy "clicker person" when I have the whole story. And the whole story is not the training session. Clicker training was developed, mostly, for working with large marine mammals. Those aren't pets that you share your living room with. They are enormous creatures that you interact with in controlled situations.

But life is not a string of controlled situations!

There may be a handful of individuals who have figured out how to have their training protocols run their entire relationship with their dogs, but most of us don't/can't/won't go there. Most of us have toolboxes with more stuff inside. It would be nice to see people encouraged to be/do the best they can, rather than verbally poked, spanked, alpha rolled and more when they talk about the realities of working with their dogs.

In this way, we could celebrate all our lovely successes - regardless of what name they go by!

I like to come here to talk clicker, because it's something I'm interested in, I do it, I'd like to learn more. I like to go to the CM section to talk CM, because I like it, it interests me, I want to learn more. I like to go to the health and nutrition sections to talk skin/vet/health stuff ...

What's the big problem with that? It's all good. Let's celebrate the bounty! [sm=clapping hands smiley.gif]

But life is not a string of controlled situations!

There may be a handful of individuals who have figured out how to have their training protocols run their entire relationship with their dogs, but most of us don't/can't/won't go there.

 
 every second you spend with your dog is a "training situation", not just the highly controlled "clicker sessions" or obedience class. 
 
Most people tend to interact with dogs in a reactive way-- you "react" to your dogs behavior and then attempt to pick up the pieces rather than proactively heading the problem off before it starts. Thus you feel you MUST correct the dog, do something to stop the dog from doing this behavior right now. Usually people don't do anything and let the dog practice the behavior multiple times before they get fed up and try to stop it. How many people let their puppy jump up on them or tow them around by the leash for months before they decide to "fix it"? now you have months of practice to undo.
 
It's not that hard to "control" and micro-manage practically every aspect of a puppy's first few months of life, and once you've laid the groundwork of proper manners and basic obedience your dog can sail through most "out of control" situations.  You do have to have some experience, or get help from an experienced trainer to think about all of the basics you need to instill-- what do dogs do if we don't prevent them? they potty in the house, they eat the furniture, they counter-surf, they jump on people, they bark, they resource guard, they chase cats, they bolt out the door, they are frightened by kids/beards/men in hats, they don't come when called, they pull on leash, they think other dogs are fascinating/scary. The list is finite. And can be pro-actively "cured before they start" with management and training.
 
 

every second you spend with your dog is a "training situation", not just the highly controlled "clicker sessions" or obedience class. 

Most people tend to interact with dogs in a reactive way-- you "react" to your dogs behavior and then attempt to pick up the pieces rather than proactively heading the problem off before it starts. Thus you feel you MUST correct the dog, do something to stop the dog from doing this behavior right now. Usually people don't do anything and let the dog practice the behavior multiple times before they get fed up and try to stop it. How many people let their puppy jump up on them or tow them around by the leash for months before they decide to "fix it"? now you have months of practice to undo.

It's not that hard to "control" and micro-manage practically every aspect of a puppy's first few months of life, and once you've laid the groundwork of proper manners and basic obedience your dog can sail through most "out of control" situations.  You do have to have some experience, or get help from an experienced trainer to think about all of the basics you need to instill-- what do dogs do if we don't prevent them? they potty in the house, they eat the furniture, they counter-surf, they jump on people, they bark, they resource guard, they chase cats, they bolt out the door, they are frightened by kids/beards/men in hats, they don't come when called, they pull on leash, they think other dogs are fascinating/scary. The list is finite. And can be pro-actively "cured before they start" with management and training.

This is what's frustrating. I have two kids, a husband who is away from home most of the week, a 32 hour a week job and a new at-home business. I got myself an adult rescue dog with all the baggage attached, and I'm tired of being told that positive dog training is easy and fool-proof the only reason I can't get it "right" is because I'm too stupid to learn and to lazy to follow through.

You know what I realized after a long talk with Lucy last night? (well I talked, she snored). Using an extremely mild, non-physical aversive instead of following her around 24/7 may not be considered doing it "right" by someone else's standards, but it's working for our dog, our family and our situation so it's right for us. That doesn't mean I'm abandoning my goal of learning positive dog-training metods or making excuses for why it would never work for me. I'm just admitting my limitations of time and ability and making my goals more realistic. I'm no longer setting *myself* up to fail with impossibly high standards.

Jennifer, thanks for your post. I think you are in the same position as many dog owners - myself included. I think it is important to find your own way of training your dog and not get caught up in 'someone else's standards'. As long as one works towards their own goals with compassion, commitment and a loving heart - who can really judge you?

Clicker training was developed, mostly, for working with large marine mammals

Actually, they used whistles with the dolphins. But a marker is a marker, and many dogs respond to the sound of the clicker. But you could use a whistle. Whatever it is should be an unchanging sound that equals the completion of the behavior and a reward.

Secondly, all creatures, including mammals, and even fish, respond to positive operant conditioning. I saw a video of a woman marker training a fish with a flashlight. That's not to say that dolphins equal dogs. Dolphins are not tame, are quite sentient, but they do have an affinity for man, as do dogs, which are domesticated. If a marker works that well on a wild animal such as a dolphin, how much easier could it be with a domesticated dog?

Many of us have used corrections before and I freely admit that I have used the scruff and pin before. But I have found that well-marked and reinforced obedience works better even if used as an incompatible behavior to the behavior that I want to stop. Why? The scruff, in doggy terms, is momentary. The obedience, marked and rewarded, is always rewarding and changes the track of things. 

It's funny how, in one breath, we "clicker people" can be painted as treat-dispensing butlers catering to or manipulating with food rather than "commanding" the dog, and in the next breath, we are too controlling for requiring alternate behavior that is positively motivated.

I would have to say that I'm not so much against corrections, at least mild ones, as I am for positive motivation and have found, by and large, in our case, the positive motivation has far better results. Once, Shadow got to meet, at a friend's house, a Chihuahua. We decided to let them play in the fenced in area. Shadow plays like a 26 in tall puppy who weighs 65 pounds and can run over 30 mph. The Chi got scared and started snarling and getting ready to defend. Shadow returned in kind and started snarling, etc. I called "off" and Shadow offed in mid-snarl. And "off" was trained with treats.

Wait! Are we in the clicker training section? Why can't we write about clicker training and managing a dog's environment? Why can't we write it about it here? For those who disagree or are not interested, it's an optional read.
 
BTW, good for you, Ron, with Shadow. Loving it! I love those stories! I love the ones that actually say this is my story and this is how it happened. That's what matters to readers--the connections (er corrections?) we make here and the success stories we've had with clicker training.
 
Like you, I'm a big girl, too, who's done her share of "balanced" training and choke chain training and punishment training and hey, I'm here to stay.

Wait! Are we in the clicker training section? Why can't we write about clicker training and managing a dog's environment? Why can't we write it about it here? For those who disagree or are not interested, it's an optional read.

 
Sometimes, people go to other sections and ask questions that are not always welcome so "turn-about is fair play," I imagine. I have mentioned before that it will be a long wait in the clicker section if someone is expecting us to not prefer clicker training over traditional correction methods. I'm not anti-corrective, per se, and I'm not anti-CM. I have simply found that clicker training works and it works better for me, anyway, than the other methods. OTOH, I may have hurt some feelings when I pointed out that it has a scientific basis, that I prefer science and math, (oops, I said math, again) and that led to a semantic brouhaha. Now, any time I post something in the clicker section, and I do it to avoid conflict in the other sections, especially sections that advocate more corrective styles, it still becomes a debate of +R vs. +P.

Settling down . . . []

I got myself an adult rescue dog with all the baggage attached, and I'm tired of being told that positive dog training is easy and fool-proof the only reason I can't get it "right" is because I'm too stupid to learn and to lazy to follow through.

 
who said it was easy?   raising a puppy is a very difficult, time-consuming job. Rehabbing an adult rescue with baggage is even more difficult. 
 
Training requires physical skills in timing and body language that require practice to get right. Everyone messes up from time to time-- click at the wrong time, deliver the reward to the wrong location. People only say it's "foolproof" because the consequences of "messing up" positive training are primarily limited to slowing down the training process and can readily be fixed later. If you "mess up" when applying a correction, you CAN permanently "mess up" your dog.

It is also time consuming. 

When dealing with Zeus' reactivity, for months and months it was every minute studying and working with him.

My entire life was put on hold.