Working Dogs Crossover to Companions

The point about using corrections in those contexts is that it's the time to build a relationship with my dog, where the dog knows that he'll be informed if he's incorrect, BUT that communication will be both clear and fair, AND the dog is free to find the correct choice - and ideally I'll make the boundaries of "grace" very, very clear. Building this give and take outside the working environment is vital - starting it in the training pen is trying to introduce too many concepts at the same time. I'm sure you are aware what a no-no that is.

I don't think that this statement implies anything other than fairness and consistency.  The gentleman you mentioned who said that one should never have to touch a dog in anger was right.  And, your statement is not in opposition to that.  I don't think you have to train behaviors "dry" to be fair with a herder.  I think they are particularly good at learning what a NRM is, and you can often use that to great advantage to inform them that they weren't correct and then let the dog work out the puzzle from there.  I think it is important to remember that these dogs are the penultimate problem solvers of the dog world, and they are often better at it than we give them credit for.  First time Sequoyah's frisbee fell inside a gated area, took her about 2/10 of a millisecond to figure it out and head for the gate, which she knew I could open - she looked back at me as if to say, c'mon hurry up.  Many other dogs would just stand, stare, or bark at the frisbee and eventually give up. [] You could just see the wheels turning in that speckled little head - she was looking for a solution. 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I'm not sure I believe you, in that punitive training methods are necessary or even the best way. These sound like the same sort of "excuses" protection dog trainers and hunting dog trainers make to justify using harsh corrections. The truth is, people train using these methods because that's what they used in the past, not because they are the "best" way.

It's not difficult at all to train a dog to never charge past the handler through doorways without using corrections, or to become an off-leash "velcro dog"; claiming you have to use corrections to get these behaviors undermines any claims you make about the validity of applying punishments to getting other behaviors.

"Excuses"?!?
mudpuppy, I am speechless. Completely speechless. I'd love to say more...

The "cross over to companions" part of this discussion is that having discovered that working dogs don't respond to corrections as abuse, I've found that certain behaviors in other venues can also be effectively and fairly taught with the judicious and well timed use of mild aversives. And if those corrections hasten the process of the dog learning to do something correctly, and hence hasten the dog's opportunities to be rewarded, then sometimes the use of corrections may be just as "dog friendly" as rigidly adhering to a philosophy that admits no nuance in any alternatiive approach.

 
I've seen border collies trained in agility using a lot of "mild corrections"-- the dog is downed, take off course, etc. whenever the dog messes up, and the dog keeps on trying. You do that with practically any other breed of dog and they'll just quit on you.

I've seen border collies trained in agility using a lot of "mild corrections"-- the dog is downed, take off course, etc. whenever the dog messes up, and the dog keeps on trying. You do that with practically any other breed of dog and they'll just quit on you.

 
I've seen corrections i.e. pulled off the course used with plenty of other breeds of dogs and haven't seen any of them shut down.  They are out there the next time trying just as hard.  If a dog shuts down that easily I don't think that they are having fun to begin with.
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

I've seen border collies trained in agility using a lot of "mild corrections"-- the dog is downed, take off course, etc. whenever the dog messes up, and the dog keeps on trying. You do that with practically any other breed of dog and they'll just quit on you.

I've seen corrections i.e. pulled off the course used with plenty of other breeds of dogs and haven't seen any of them shut down.  They are out there the next time trying just as hard.  If a dog shuts down that easily I don't think that they are having fun to begin with.

Hmmm. I see shelties in your avatar, and they were the example I was going to offer of a non-border collie breed that isn't easily shut down in agility by being given a down command or pulled off the course. I've mostly worked with herding breeds, although mainly with upright breeds (aussies, collies, corgis) and as I think of it, those breeds and belgians were the other specific examples I can think of that haven't been shut down by being downed and pulled off the course. I can hardly think of a mushier breed than collies, but I know trainers of MACH collies who have offered both of those suggestions as ways to deal with specific agility training problems. So maybe this is a herding breed thing? Maybe, since herding breeds of necessity have had to deal with pressure in order to do their jobs, that characteristic still persists in at least some members of the breed even if they haven't seen a sheep in thirty generations? Hmmmm.

So maybe this is a herding breed thing?

 
I don't think that is just a herding breed thing.  I have seen it used on many breeds of dogs.  It does seem that the herding breeds get it quicker.  I also have seen many terrier people use a correction but they don't seem to understand as quickly but I haven't seen dogs shut down.
 

It is probably a herding thing to some extent, and we should remember that terriers are tenacious, so probably non-plussed to some extent by a human's intervention.  But, say, for example, you have a soft Welsh Springer, you might not get the same response.  And, clearly dogs of all groups are varied in their temperament.  In competitive agility, dogs are chosen for their keenness as performance dogs, and quite a few of them come from working lines or mixes of show and working lines, so tend not to be the weenies of the group, for the most part.  Generalizations suck. []

Resilience to handler pressure, tenaciousness on task, and instinct all offer a really fascinating study to someone training dogs to intricate tasks. In addition there's the foundation of the dog's training and the environment. I have to keep all of these seperate when I'm intereacting with a dog, because different situations put pressure on different aspects of these. Juggling all of these pieces of the picture is my job to make sure I'm making anything new I'm asking as easy as possible.

When I teach a dog to walk on leash, I use twenty five feet of line. It's very rare that I need that much, but I want the dog to know they've got that freedom. Otherwise it's not easy to be right, because if they don't figure it out before two feet of leash run out, we've got a different concept to deal with besides just staying with me - the loose leash. Most dogs will return to me, either out of curiosity, or because I'm now moving in the opposite direction and they have lost the leadership position (ha!).

The second the dog loses interest in me, I walk backwards. The dog learns to pay attention. There's no leash jerks, but there's no huge Good Doggies and treats either. I don't want the dog to learn to panic if he's not hearing the cheerleader section. I've seen too many dogs like that started on sheep to want to put a dog through it knowingly. I can't be a cheerleader around sheep because it riles the sheep up.

The first time they see sheep as we enter the training paddock, they may then forge forward again. Sheep trump all prior proofing for most good herding dogs, trust me. Dogs that are really, really worked up and potentially pose a threat to the sheep, may need a sharp correction to remember that I exist. Then we go through the walk backwards routine again. Most dogs say - "OH, I know what you want!" I don't expect miracles at this point. As soon as I get the loose leash we'll begin.

Otherwise I'll have to be really, really mean to get the dog's attention once we have begun working with the sheep. I don't want to do that - once we get to the sheep I want it to be as mellow as possible, as quickly as possible. That frees up as much of the dog's brain as possible to deal with the new experience of reading sheep and learning what to do with them.

The three things that always apply to this kind of training, no matter what you do:

1) The point of the correction is to get the dog to say, "Oh, you rang?" Not punish, stop the action, teach a lesson, let off your own steam, or make any kind of connection between the current action and the correction (ie, permanent extinction of particular action). You might think I was crazy if you watch me work, especially my youngster. I'll shout as he starts to dive in the sheep, and he might hesitate for a second, but then go right back into the middle when I repeat the command. I don't care what he did - I know he'll be ready to give more next time. Sometimes they can't stop what they are doing until the adrenalin levels drop.

2) Always instantly offer a chance to do it right after a correction. Don't keep hammering on the correction, or escalating, hoping to "make" the dog behave. Bleurgh. Short, sweet, minimal, then back off. Watch a dog growl at another dog - even as they vocalize, they'll make more space - turn the head away, lean away, take a step back.

3) Accept anything the dog offers once you see a gesture of acceptance. I'm still learning - my list is growing rapidly. Tongue flick, ear turn, relaxed mouth, coat shake (that's a big one - they really understand and feel very cool with it if you see that one), and of course the old standby tail wag. What you want is evidence that the dog has gone from a state of pure instinct to creative thinking. Accepting whatever he offers at that point is telling him not to be afraid to experiment in spite of the possibility of correction that is out there.

Please note, when I slip and say he here and there when talking about the imaginary dog, I'm picturing the dogs I'm working with currently, all of which are male. In fact, my whole household is male except the two non-Border Collies.[]

Great thread brookcove! []
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to share your real-world experiences in such detail. I'm sure I'll be reading through this one over and over again. []

The thing is, when training a high drive working dog, you can use ANY method of training and the dog will end up trained.  The dog wants to work so badly that he persists through corrections-- and if he doesn't, you drop him out of your program as "unsuitable" "not enough drive" . It's when you try to apply correction-based training to companion dogs and non-traditional working breeds that you start to have problems. But you can train any dog of any level of drive and hardness with reinforcement based methods. The "untrainable" afghan hound suddenly becomes trainable. The soft spaniel who would have a nervous breakdown if scruffed suddenly becomes trainable. This is one reason I am careful to avoid classes instructed by agility trainers who have never worked with anything except high-drive border collies; they really have no idea that their training methods are going to "shut down" the pug, the daschund, the dane, the whippet, the coonhound, and the spaniel enrolled in the class (true class makeup of one class I attended-- not a single herding dog or terrier in the place. Instructor was a +R "extremist" so they all did extremely well, particularly the pug).
 
Let's contrast my neighbor's dog, who I believe is GSD/BC/energizer bunny/tornado mix, and is very hard and work-drivey, with Baxter, who is Dane, and is prey-drivey but very soft and not work-drivey. My neighbor's dog leaps up into the windowsill and hangs from the curtain, cause it looks fun, and my SO, who is supposed to be watching the not-fully-trained-dog, yells loudly EH; the hard dog glances at him in puzzlement, you see a thought occur (oh, this must not be allowed), and he drops back onto the floor and happily charges around in circles when told "yes". Baxter, who was calmly sleeping in the other room, has bolted upstairs and is so worried about what he might have done wrong that he won't enter that room again for two weeks, and won't look at or go near my SO for days. And this was just with a mildly aversive no-reward marker. If someone tried to give Baxter a hard collar pop I don't think Baxter would ever forgive that person and would refuse to associate with that person forever-- he'd put on his "dumb as a stump" act.

Well, that's funny, I thought is was common knowledge that herding dogs (aussie, bc, acd, etc) are "sensitive" - they understand the subtlest nuances of tone and gesture, so that overt disapproval can be "heartbreaking" for them. Maybe there's a distinction between "soft" and "sensitive" that I don't understand?

My own ACD mix is highly sensitive to everything - praise and correction. Too much treating makes her crazy - her drive to conform and "get it right' is so high to begin with, that treats send her through the roof in a frenzy of eagerness. Confidently stepping towards her with even a slightly hard look will send her flopping on the ground, feet up (unless she's distracted, of course!). And, you can't ask for the same behavior repeatedly from an ACD, they'll figure they're doing it wrong, and keep trying to "perfect" it.

I don't doubt that herding breeds could be called the space shuttles of the dog world, but all dogs have drive for something, all dogs problem solve in some area ... and doesn't so much of living and working with dogs have to do with chanelling instinct?

yeah, there is a difference between "soft" and "sensitive". Your sensitive herding dog may be "heartbroken" by being told he's wrong, but that just makes him try harder the next time because he has a high drive to "get it right". Take away that drive to "get it right" and you end up with a "heartbroken" dog who decides to not even try anymore-- a "soft" dog.

I think it's important to keep in mind that a "correction" can have many levels, and a competent trainer would adjust what they are doing for the dog in the moment they're working it. My youngest dog right now only gets the faintest *whisper* of an "ahhht" - and responds appropriately. Sometimes what's appropriate for a particular dog changes in a matter of moments on stock - and the trainer or handler has to adjust their training to suit the entire picture at *that* moment.

While I certainly wouldn't recommend the type of training Becca's talking about for every dog and certainly not just any owner, I can attest to having seen and experienced this type of training with many, many dogs result in happy, well trained dogs - dogs of different breeds in fact. I just cannot dismiss it any more than I can dismiss the success of all positive training for certain dogs in the corresponding situations.

Do I train my Papillon this way? To a degree. Do I train my Border Collies (the ones that work stock) with a clicker? To a degree (albeit not on stock). It depends on the situation at *that moment* and *that dog* as to what is appropriate.

There are some dogs I'd never train this way. However, a correction does not automatically shut down every dog - if it is appropriate for the dog and the situation. Just my 2cents.

The thing is, when training a high drive working dog, you can use ANY method of training and the dog will end up trained. The dog wants to work so badly that he persists through corrections-- and if he doesn't, you drop him out of your program as "unsuitable" "not enough drive" .

I hear this all the time. And yet I also hear the stereotype about the "hypersensitive BC". Because you are right, a lot of sport trainers think just as you do, that that super work-driven BC would work for ANYTHING, through any aversive, and then they are suprised when their working-bred BC turns out to be "soft." A lot of them seem to just think they got a bad apple and end up with sport-bred BCs that, similiar to field bred retrievers, ARE bred to work through anything.

Cord is so sensitive to body pressure that you can raise your fingertip with your arms at your side and get his attention. He gets that from both sides of his family. He's the third dog I've had like him and he's the first one who's benefited fully from my recent very intense study of animal communication and canine body language. I'm learning with him, never, ever ever shout or move towards him unless I really mean it. BUT, it won't always be like this. Here's why.

I was thinking about your story about "collateral damage" from the "soft dog" and the "hard dog" being in the same room. I was just out working Ben and Cord on the ewes and lambs. When I do that, I have to make sure, for now, that I don't fuss at Ben too much because Cord takes it too much to heart.

However, it's not because he's too sensitive to corrections. If that were true, then I could stop him on a dime anytime I wanted by just yelling at him. Nope. When Cord's got the bit in his teeth, you can get out the proverbial two-by-four.

His sensitivity to pressure is the "down" side of that stuff he can do with the lamb, that I mentioned earlier, keying off whispers and body pressure to get done the most fiddly stuff. There's an awful lot of good BCs like this - most of the top competing - and breeding - dogs, are like this. The good part is that you can do just about anything with a dog like this, on stock - it feels like the dog is reading your mind. The challenge is that you do have to work the dog through the fear that is their initial response to pressure. You have to teach the dog to think, not be scared, when faced with a barrier/correction/pressure.

Pressure is a language that the working dog has to learn. I'm trying to teach myself Gaidhlig right now. The grammar is fairly complex but not unsurmountingly so. The pronunciation is murder without the help of someone to stop me and say, "No, you forgot to change the "d" after that slender vowel." I'd feel a lot more confident if someone I trusted, let me practice in front of them in a controlled environment, and corrected my pronunciation. It's hard to concentrate on vocabulary, grammar, AND a very difficult set of pronunciation rules - letting someone else monitor the scariest part frees up my mind to dig through my slim vocabulary reserves and have those "Aha!" moments with the grammar.

Right now I'm teaching Cord the language of pressure. As we progress, he stops reacting fearfully to any pressure and learns to think through things, whether it's me saying, "Ah-ah!" or a sheep suddenly bolting away, or a ram that turns on him, or when the sheep cram themselves into a dark and scary place.

I know he'll be fine. Ben was exactly like Cord a few years ago. You couldn't raise your voice around him at all or he'd melt into a puddle. Except when he had the bit in his teeth. But that was because at those times he was running scared, completely brainless.

I know it's not just herding dogs or working dogs. Unless you count a Chinese crested as a working dog. Her recall was terrible until I gave up and went for the working dog recall routine with her. I've let it go again (she's got the personality of a terrier, she needs refresher courses frequently), but it didn't seem to hurt her feelings at all. And she's a marvel with the clicker. I constantly regret not having much time for her.

Maggie was my first dog ever, and I pretty much did the positive training thing with her from the first time we started sports. I took agility with a lady who studied under Karen Pryor. Maggie's a Finnish spitz. For her, once she realizes that she's working for you, there's not a treat, clicker, or force of nature in the world that will get her back on course. She just leaves and she acts like you've beaten her if you lure her back.

She has her little rebellions and I just couldn't fix them until very recently. With ten dogs in the house, they start running together and I started acting like she was Cord being a dork. Lo and behold, she didn't dissolve into a puddle of protoplasm and now she listens 100% instead of basically when she feels like it. It's not a dominance thing, it's just that she trusts me enough that she now "dares to do right."

I do believe you are passionate about what you believe to be true about how this works, and I respect that. I know a lot of people just don't understand the spectrum that exists in the world of correction-based training. I finally got permission to post a video that shows a young dog being worked on sheep, yay! This illustrates what I mean about the point of the correction being not to cause pain or stop the action, but to communicate a wrong choice.

The first part shows his owner working and getting hints from her instructor. Turn up the sound and you'll hear him, too. Notice how few actual commands you'll hear, and how soft the corrections are except for Really Bad Boo-boos. Watch the dog's response - not fear or turning off, but trying something different. Next the instructor will work the dog and if you've got really good hearing you MIGHT hear him talking to the dog, with the exception again of Really Bad Boo-boos. Notice how even Really Bad Boo-boos are corrected, but the instructor ALSO moves back and lets the dog try again immediately. You might have to watch a few times to see that - watch the amount of space between the shepherd and the sheep. At the end he's working a more advanced dog with a full set of commands - I think he's also got the young dog in there, too, but I'm not sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXkd-EXcJfA

This YouTube member has some other fun vids of her very talented dogs learning to work, too. She's going to be joining her SO in Scotland soon to help him on a full time sheep farm, so for her this is not just a game!

ORIGINAL: brookcove
However, it's not because he's too sensitive to corrections. If that were true, then I could stop him on a dime anytime I wanted by just yelling at him. Nope. When Cord's got the bit in his teeth, you can get out the proverbial two-by-four.

ooOOOooo ... "bit in his mouth" ... "drive engaged" ... I get it - more! A dog will respond differently to different handling approaches depending on what drive she's in ... oooh, this *is* fun!

So, a "soft" hound .... can he take more of the proverbial 2x4 when he's "got the bit in his teeth" (engaged in "prey drive," I take it)?

Thanks for the video link, Becca! I also love watching a competition video I found of your mentor (I looked him up after you mentioned him on another thread []), but since you brought up permission, I don't want to provide a link to something if that's not wanted.