Punishment Has No Place

I don't understand what you are saying DPU-- if you're training properly the dog doesn't really know you are "withholding" a reward. The dog should always feel that he might get a reward at any time if he engages in certain behaviors. If my dog is lying quietly, there is a chance I will come over and reward him. If he lies quietly for four hours and I don't reward him, I doubt he feels stressed or punished.
When training a new behavior, if the dog doesn't get a reward for the first behavior they offer, most dogs who understand how it works will begin offering all sorts of different behaviors to see what exactly gets them the reward. They don't seem "punished" in any way.

Punishment has no place in the teaching phase of a dog's education!

'Teaching' is a pretty broad term. Learning doesn't just encompass one part of your brain. When I learn something new (and I have to learn new software on regular basis), I follow instructions, my intuition, I employ the knowledge of what not to do based on the mistakes I've done in the past. What motivates me besides the reward is avoiding having to deal with mess the ups (lets just say, I messed up some software settings an I have to fix it... i.e. 'introduction of something bad').
If I was messing with that software, and my mistake was a direct result of something I just did, that would be very clear to me - don't do *that*. That's a "correction" if you will. If I was messing with the software and occasionally, with no warning, my boss would get up and hit me in the head, I'd be pretty mad - why? What's the pattern? What can I associate this with? Couldn't you give me a warning that I am doing something bad? Guide me!
Punishment is a penalty, correction is not. Corrections have to be applied right at or before the behavior starts. Corrections have to be clean and clear. We can have fun arguing what's a correction and what's a punishment. But, in the dog training word we only have +-P and +-R as out labels. However you look at it, a correction classifies as a punishment based on the graph we've been laid out by, pardon me, this pseudo-science. +P through -R - it's just an opinion - it's not like god came down and told us to use these labels. I don't like labels in general and I am very politically incorrect. You are free to tare me into pieces now.

The main point is that SO many things contribute to our learning, and we often forget that we are also animals.

I guess the definition I was looking for in Essie#%92s case is:
 
 Non-contingent Reinforcement is a procedure that decreases the frequency of a behavior by both reinforcing alternative behaviors and extinguishing the undesired behavior. Since the alternative behaviors are reinforced, they increase in frequency and therefore compete for time with the undesired behavior.
 
In keeping with OP, I agree punishing our dog as a separate deliberate act because of our own insufficiency in training has no place in learning.  But within learning and behavior modification I cannot see reinforcing good without eliminating the bad.  Just because the human perceives that the learning is done in a positive way, withholding the treat is not flat but has a negative effect.

Punishment is a penalty, correction is not.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I don't get how a penalty is any different than a correction. 

I do see how "absence of a reward" is not a punishment or a penalty and how it produces extinction.  That which is not reinforced tends to extinguish.

Believe me, though, I do agree with your statement that humans are also animals.  We just refuse to admit it most of the time, else how could we maintain our delusion that we are more deserving of life than any other animal.  It's an ecosystem - we are all related.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Punishment is a penalty, correction is not.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I don't get how a penalty is any different than a correction.

The difference between punishment and correction is timing, intensity, attitude and purpose.

If you punish someone you are paying them back for doing something wrong. You are angry, and you focus on the past. When you correct you focus on future, you are calm. With kids its related to discipline. With humans you can take your time and talk things through; with dogs, you have to be immediate - timing is the key. You also have to take into consideration the history of the dog, whether or not it's been abased before, if it's aggressive, etc. Corrections have to be applied correctly [8D], and on case to case basis.

I'm not a novice.  My comment was suggesting that there is not much difference.  A punisher is a punisher is a punisher, behaviorally speaking.  A correction is a correction - but it can certainly be badly timed.
What I don't get is why no one thinks it is just as effective to *IGNORE* what you wish to extinguish.  Example: the dog that jumps up on you.  Guess what? If you could get everyone to simply ignore the dog (even to the point of silently leaving and going into a closet or a bathroom) then the dog would eventually quit jumping up.  Why?  Because he would get to understand that nothing is ever gained by doing so.  No attention, no eye contact, no pushing (playtime - gotcha!), no correction (which can be inadvertantly rewarding to some dogs). Nothing.
It takes longer, and is, admittedly, hard to get people to do - but it works.  Conversely, punishment (and accidental reinforcement - "no", "down" "off" push, shove, or smack) for that behavior seldom works, or there wouldn't be so many dogs jumping up on people.
The next thing is, why do people only want to correct the dog, instead of *REWARDING* him for having all four feet on the floor?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

It takes longer, and is, admittedly, hard to get people to do - but it works.  Conversely, punishment (and accidental reinforcement - "no", "down" "off" push, shove, or smack) for that behavior seldom works, or there wouldn't be so many dogs jumping up on people.
The next thing is, why do people only want to correct the dog, instead of *REWARDING* him for having all four feet on the floor?

 
Ooooor just a body block letting the dog know that behavior is not good = Faster and also works []
 
i.e [linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPpIOUCDdUw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPpIOUCDdUw[/link]
 
Notice he hardly even touched the dog, fast, effective, non violence, what else you could ask for? []
 
People who knows how to do it knows that behavior wont be repeated, if there is so many dogs jumping on people is because they are far from doing it right whatever the technique they are using
 
Disclaimer: i am not saying that yours does not work, i am just saying what also can be done

ok  no disrespect intended but who says so.... Folks are using lots of words that do not have a commonly agreed upon meaning.  The original posting dealt with the language of operant conditioning.  Penalty and correction are not commonly used terms in that discipline.
 
From an educational standpoint:  Punishment is retribution and no education or teaching;  discipline is the teaching of alternate behavior following the commission of an inappropriate behavior,  mangagement strategies prevent misbehavior in the first place through environmental controls. 

body blocking isn't training though, it's just management. You used body language for that one incident. Body-blocking might keep your dog off you, but about when your elderly aunt, who hasn't a clue about dogs, comes to visit and accidently uses inviting body language?
Not to mention some under-socialized or highly exuberant dogs don't respond to body blocks. Try body-blocking a wild undersocialized lab puppy, you'll probably get flattened.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

body blocking isn't training though, it's just management. You used body language for that one incident. Body-blocking might keep your dog off you, but about when your elderly aunt, who hasn't a clue about dogs, comes to visit and accidently uses inviting body language?
Not to mention some under-socialized or highly exuberant dogs don't respond to body blocks. Try body-blocking a wild undersocialized lab puppy, you'll probably get flattened.

Well if you think body blocking is not training thats your opinion, if you think that the moon is made of cheese that would be also your opinion, i have done it, not only with my dog but with several others and they always get the idea, it seems that you are not happy with anything even when is about a techinique that does not use force, or is violent, i think that petting your dog uses more physical touch than a body block, are you also against petting?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I do see how "absence of a reward" is not a punishment or a penalty and how it produces extinction.  That which is not reinforced tends to extinguish.

 
Yes, you see but those two sad hound eyes of Marvin say different. 
 

I still don't get how people assume that punishment is done in anger, retribution, is emotional etc..... I think this may be CMs influence and he is not on the same page as everyone else terminology wise.  Perhaps this is in part a language barrier?  In any case I think we're all operating under different definitions of the same terms and it's confusing the issue and hindering debate.

Behaviourally speaking, Punishment is something that decreases the likelihood a behaviour will be repeated. 
Ex: Owner comes home, puppy has peed on the carpet, she gets angry and rubs his nose in it to "teach him a lesson". 
Done in anger, it's a form of retirbution and maybe it made her feel better momentarily because it relieved her frustration or what have you.  But did it "decrease the likelihood the behaviour would be repeated"?  Well, no, I don't think so.  So, therefore, technically speaking, it was not a punishment.  Right?  Another difference: Punishment (as I tried to point out and spiritdogs also emphasised) has no place in the teaching phase.  Treatment as described above has no place in training at all!!! 
 
A body block is a correction.... for some people, some dogs and some situations it is an effective one.  It does exactly what it says on the tin; corrects the dogs action.  But it's NOT (IMO) a punishment.  It manages the dogs behaviour until you have taught him how to behave appropriately.

I agree with the notion that punishments have no place in the teaching phase... corrections however DO (IMO).  See again Glenda's bite inhibition as a prime example.  Where the line becomes blurred and correction becomes punishment then it has no place in the teaching phase.  When a correction is applied inconsistently or in anger, then it no longer has a place in any phase of training.... it doesn't mean it has magically become "punishment" and therefore unacceptable, it just means it is a poor, ineffective and unkind technique.
 
Edit to add in direct response to espencer's question to me:  A dogs environment may contain MANY things that cause him stress.  Stress does not have to come from the owner.  All living things feel stress at some time and all living things need/have a way of coping with it.  If you have a stressed animal it is not necessarily something you have done or not done that caused it; it is just a part of life.  I've never heard CM say anything along these lines so I fully expect we will disagree on this one.  I will say NO MORE on the subject of chewing and stress, unless you want to open a new thread to debate it in. 

No Chuffy, the expectation is that for posters like MRV or Spiritdogs use the correct terminology and fit the non experts words into the scientific language.  Not dismiss it or like ignore it.  When you restrict every day words such as punishment to the scientific definition, you dismiss and represent other degrees as flat or neutral or even worst, not important.  In my post, I stated what I felt was punishment.  MRV sited the definition of punishment which left out all the other degrees.  I like to think a dog receive either pleasant and unpleasant experiences.  In learning and training, I attempt to avoid inflicting unpleasant experience on my dogs.

I'll be the first to admit that my eyes start to cross at all these different terms.
 
My dogs are always learning new things.  Not really formally, but  in an offhanded "hey, lets try this" kind of way.
 
I'm of the belief that learning NEVER stops, in humans or critters.  So even tho we've pretty well reached a nice even level with my youngest two approaching two, I'm of a mind that if you've got a brain, you ought to be using it.  My dogs are incredibly SMART, and while I don't know for certain that their brains work as ours do (use it or loose it) I'd rather not take the chance.
 
So, I guess for me, that means that punishment has no place in our daily lives at all, since learning is an ongoing thing for us.  But, that's ok since I don't like punishment anyhow.
 
I'm guessing that since she keeps using that example, Chuffy must really like how I work with pups on bite inhibition.[]  That came about as a result of ME learning.....Shadow was an only and I did everything that everyone suggested.  My yelp was so realistic that neighbors would run out in their yards to see if the pup had been injured.  That got kind of embarrassing, and it didn't do a danged thing.  Shadow is STILL a bit mouthy...gently so, but he still uses that darned mouth more than I'd like him to.  The correct and redirect came to me in a moment of who knows what....but I did ask a trainer about it, over ignoring, which, gosh, you really can't do with a whole LITTER of pups chewing on you, and she said, yep, good idea.  And it does work.  But it only works if you are consistent with it.
 
And, I seem to be roaming OT.....sorry!