pairing and classicly conditioning a pinch or an E-collar to be a positive

isn't that exactly how most people use ecollars nowadays? not as a correction, but as a signal to pay attention to the handler?
 

Or rather than the shock, use a vibration setting. That works well for deaf dogs who can't hear commands.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

isn't that exactly how most people use ecollars nowadays? not as a correction, but as a signal to pay attention to the handler?

 
That's what I thought as well.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

isn't that exactly how most people use ecollars nowadays? not as a correction, but as a signal to pay attention to the handler?

That's what I thought too, I think I already posted this somewhere else, and I still cant remmeber wher is it i read it but here goes. Someone, somewhere, contioned his dog to see the "buzz" in the e-collar either as a replacement for the "click" or the reward itself. Sorry for the spotty info full of holes and maybes, but as I said, I can't remember for the life of me where i read that.

No the stim is not a rewrd marker. It stil is an aversive. the dog is working to avoid the stim.


And I have no use for the vibration, makes to much noise, and the stim on a level 1 innotek is so light, you could not even tell me if the collar was on. trust me the dog is not being hurt. Trust me I won't be working with any deaf dogs soon.

And if someone is not using the stim as correcton it's a reward. if you stim the dog and performs a behavior the dog is working to avoid the stim. even if it is not painful, this has been my problem explaining this. most people cannot wrap thier heads around, it's not painful, but it's still aversive. they believe a correction must have some great unpleasentries associated with it.
And it's not a signal for them to focus. lets go back to the pinch, the pinch has been classicly conditioned to have a positive association.

Now the minute I say sit, i pop the collar, or down.  what I am hoping to see is more animation, and drive.

well, the way I try to get more animation and drive is with toys. Nothing like a good tug game or toy chase to build drive. And you can easily condition dogs to get excited in response to a cue-- I say Ready Set and the dog is quivering in excitement and ready to explode by the time I say GO.  I suppose you could use any cue to do that, even a light pop on a prong.

I'm a bit lost on what you're trying to do exactly. Am I right that you want to condition the collar, that would usually be aversive as a reinforcer? As far as I was aware of, I thought you were supposed to pair the collar with reinforcement first before actually using it on a dog anyway, or the dog will figure out that the collar is the thing that is delivering the aversive, and may refuse to wear it, or at least put up a struggle. I think this is the point at which I really get lost on the whole thing you are wanting to do. Do you want to the dog to actually work for the stim of the collar, or are you trying to make the dog not pay attention to it? If you stim the dog while he's actively engaged in something, i'm thinking he may not really notice it, or possibly not as much as he would other wise, in the same way that we may not feel pain as badly when our minds are not free to think about it. If you wanted to make the stim of the collar itself a positive reinforcer, i'd think you would need to deliver a reinforcer quickly after delivering the stim, much in the same way you would deliver a reward right after you'd clicked if you were using a clicker. However, i'd speculate that the value of the reward would need to be very high, such that if I were to rate the value of rewards from 1-10, and if we used the same scale for aversives (if this makes sense), the reward would need to be of a higher value than the aversive. It is also possible that some dogs would be so freaked out by the stim of the collar that no matter what reward you offered, the dog would still find the stim aversive.

The collar will still be an aversive. it will still technically be r- or p+. What I want the dog to do is not fear the collar, and actually get amped by it's use. but still be technically an aversive.

and stimming the dog and then immediatly rewrarding will not make the dog think of the collar positively it will be a cue, The dog will really assocaite positive to the collar. it will just understand after the shock, a treat comes.

And yes I agree in high drive, the low levels may not work.

But lets say training starts on a table, in low drive.

have you ever called your dog and popped the leash at the exact same moment. the dog sort of springs into action faster.


My ultimate goal is to see if I can make an aversive, have a positive association, but yet, still be an aversive. Now the aversives will not be used to correct major infractions. these corrections are going to be used to stimulate the dog to make minor adjustments. like run faster. sit straighter. heel with me.
 
 
The dogs that this is planned to be done are not sensitive dogs. So I am not worried about freaking the dogs out. but what if on the table i teach the dog that stims mean something other than do it or i shock you. My belief that if the dogs are motivated enough through rewards, that hardcore aversives, are not needed. But some type of communication is needed to tell the dog it's worng. this obviously a work in progress.

gunny, if you don't mind me asking, what is the actual behavior that you want the dog to do in order to avoid the aversive?  

There is no one behavior that I would like to teach. I want to see if I can use an aversive that is mild. no more stimulating than someone tapping you. and have it be effective. I am just looking for one more way to communicate with the dog, while minimizing force. Because, I am finding at high levels of obedience that without introducing aversives, I am constantly rewarding with play and games. Which is causing the dog to goof around. it's not something I want to stiffle totally. But I am trying to find another approach that is less violent, to teach the dog to perform for a reward, and then transfering that to because they must.

What you are talking about doing is reminiscent of a "well done" ear pinch. Ie, not an ear pinch that hurts a lot but the "hey, pay attention" kind.

One of the current favorite herding trainers from overseas calls a similiar idea, "making the ground dangerous" - the ground where the dog isn't supposed to be, that is. Jack calls it "making what is wrong difficult." If you think about that for a while, you might come up with ways to implement this idea that don't involve collars and don't rev up your dog either.

What you want is for the dog to come up with the behaviour on its own (R), but you feel that reward is too stimulating - the dog has stopped thinking. That's possible - some dogs are like this. Perhaps you need a more quiet reinforcer or marker.

I don't think you need to try to make an aversive positive.  In fact, I think that's pretty impossible.  But, when you think about horsemen, you know that they use an aid, if they get no response, the aid is applied more vigorously, etc.  It takes a while to get to the whip.  But, what the horse learns is that he must obey the lightest possible aid, or else the others are surely on their way.  So, I guess if you use a slight aversive, then follow it with a "take notice" stimulus, you may get the reaction you seek.
But, the reason I asked if there was a specific behavior is that there may be a way of attacking that particular thing that you might not have considered, thus maybe wouldn't need the aversive if you could get the behavior happening another way.

Brook thanks, I am sorry if I confused the reward is not making the dog goofy, the lack of discpline is. I.e. the wanted behavior is to run over an "A" frame grab a dumb bell, and come back and sit in front of me. Addie sometimes will run grab the dumbbell. come back to the top of the "A" frame. And stop on top of it. The dog has never recieved reward for this. and has gotten some reprimands for it. And then sometimes addie will grab a sleeve and run race cars around the blinds. and many other "goofy" behaviors. The thing that I think maybe causing this is the dog has been taught to play and be goofy, so that's what she is doing.
 
And I know that if I put choclate cake down and everytime you at it, out of nowhere you you go hit. You might keep trying but if no escape was allowed except not eating cake, you just may start to hate cake.
 
Now I am not absolultey convinced that I cannot take a stim form an E-collar so soft that no human can feel it, a put postive association on it. And still have it be an aversive.
 
I actually want the avessive to create more animation, and drive. but continue to keep the dog working.
 
we will see.

What I want the dog to do is not fear the collar, and actually get amped by it's use. 

Most of the dogs I've seen trained using Fred Hassen's No Limitations methods react this way to the e-collar. LOVE IT when they see it coming.    This style is emulated in the training I do w/my dog and it naturally built drive and "love" for the collar because of associating it with play time.  Bascially, we practiced commands for a mile walk out, then the mile walk back was spent zooming all over in her fav activities (flying all over the beach or the woods) and randomly throwing out commands that were immediately "rewarded" with return to her play.  Evidently, the collar was not the reward, but the association was built.
 
Question - What's the reasoning behind putting the pinch collar in there and then transitioning to the e-collar?  Is that the tool he's currently training under?