First shaping moment!!

Sweet! For my money, shaping is absolutely the most fun thing you can do with your dog. I have to keep myself from guffawing when I'm shaping with Marlowe because I don't want him to loose his focus. Focus, dog! Think! I smell wood burning!  HA! [sm=rotfl.gif]

Wow, that's ambitious for a first shaping exercise! We're still in remedial shaping around here, like 'use your paw' or 'look that way.' [sm=lol.gif]

Wow, I'm impressed! Great job, Scout!

There are people on this board who I wish could have that experience even once!!!!  They'd be hooked on that "aha" moment, for sure. []

It is just the greatest feeling when your dog finally clicks & understands what behavior you are looking for.  Keep up the good work.

Shaping is the best fun in the world.

 I finally broke down and got a clicker.

The pom walks around in prayer mode "please Mom, pick up the clicker, please please please."

You can actually tell the moment they "get it".

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

There are people on this board who I wish could have that experience even once!!!!  They'd be hooked on that "aha" moment, for sure. []

Yes it is really rewarding when you see them start to put things together in their head...
 
My next shaping behavior will be - get a beer from the fridge and pop the cap. I lay in wait beside the fridge for her first move.... []

So, I've read about shaping but I still don't totally get it.  I mean I understand the concept (catch the dog doing something on his own and click and treat . . .) - my question is do you guys always carry a clicker and treats on you?
 
I've tried a brief stint with clicker-training and everytime I get the clicker my dog gets so focused that he will just sit in front of me waiting and drooling.  He'll perform tricks that he already knows but he won't move around or do anything for fear of missing a treat.  Once I had some treats in my pocket that he wasn't aware of and I tried to treat a behavior he was doing on his own but as soon as he realized what I had in my pocket he stopped doing the behavior.
 
Is it just a really, really long waiting game?

hmmm that's a tough one - with Scout I got some treats out, sat on the floor beside her, and waited for any microstep in the direction of what I wanted.
 
So for touching a toy in the basket - I would treat for looking at the basket, then stepping towards it, etc. At first I tried to get her to pick up a toy - but she was too focused on the treats and not interested in holding it (similar to your dog perhaps).
 
So yes, it can be a big waiting game. I did this while watching TV, so at first when Scout was just staring at the treats and not really doing anything else, I just sat and watched TV and ignored her. Eventually she gets bored and does something - and that's when I jumped in with the treats.

I've found my biggest allie when shaping is the crossword puzzle. [] I don't need it much anymore, but at first I needed a way to communicate that I'm waiting for you to do something (clearly because I have the clicker and treats out) but just sitting there staring at me is not that thing. I would just scribble at the crossword puzzle while keeping one eye on the dog and as soon as they started to give up and move around a little, that's when I'd start clicking. If they came back to just sitting and staring, I'd go back to the puzzle.

If you shape a lot with your dogs (and I do) they will start to actually look around the room when they see you with the clicker but you aren't actually giving them instructions. Marlowe is my most clicker-savvy dog and he'll sit in front of me for a second, but once he realizes that I'm not just handing out treats for sitting, he'll start looking around the room to see if there's anything he can interact with and he'll start experimenting.

Dogs that have been initially trained more traditionally can take a while to get this. Conrad for the longest time just sat in front of me like a stone, motionless. He was originally trained in a more traditional way, which was to do nothing unless I tell him to do somethiing and he really internalized that lesson. Then I totally changed the rules on him and he got really confused for a while. I had to take it slow and shape with really teeny tiny things that he'd do. A look to the left, a sniff of my hand, really minor stuff that I knew probably wasn't going to amount to a new trick. But the point was to teach him the new rules, not teach him a new behavior at that point.

I've done a lot of nose and paw targeting with the dogs so they now know that if mom gets out the clicker and puts something on the floor, interact with that thing as much as you can and see what gets the click. They'll roll it around, touch it with their paws, nose it, look under it, sniff it, lick it, all in an attempt to see what I'm going to click for. But only because they now totally know the rules.

The clickers in my house live on top of the microwave. I don't carry them around unless I'm really trying to sneakily catch them doing something specific that I know they won't do in an artificial training situation (like kicking their back legs after they poop, which is next on my agenda).

I've tried a brief stint with clicker-training and everytime I get the clicker my dog gets so focused that he will just sit in front of me waiting and drooling. He'll perform tricks that he already knows but he won't move around or do anything for fear of missing a treat. Once I had some treats in my pocket that he wasn't aware of and I tried to treat a behavior he was doing on his own but as soon as he realized what I had in my pocket he stopped doing the behavior.
Is it just a really, really long waiting game?

 
I wouldn't start with just freeshaping. I started out with the "box game" (having the dog interact w a cardboard box). This gives your dog something to focus on besides you. Meanwhile you should be avoiding looking at him (I like the crossword idea! I usually watch tv). You have to always start an exercise like that, with a dog new to shaping, by making it really really easy with a high rate of reward. Basically he gets c/t for anything besides standing still and drooling. [] Keep the session short and then try again another time. Eventually you can begin withholding c/t until he does something you want to see. Another idea might be to use a slightly lower value reward, like kibble, so it's not so all-consumingly exciting.
 
Russell is still a little 'slow' at shaping because he really wants that reward and has a hard time concentrating. So to give you an example, last night I did some freeshaping with him. He offered me a down with his head on his paws, a grumbly-talking noise, and pouncing on his toys. He just cycled through those behaviors. I c/t as long as he didn't keep repeating the thing he just tried.

Yay Scout!  Sounds like you had fun cleaning up your toys!  Keep up the good work. []

Another idea might be to use a slightly lower value reward, like kibble, so it's not so all-consumingly exciting.

 
Heh heh, actually I was using kibble!  He's pretty into his food []
 
Thanks everyone for your help, I'm going to try the box idea.  And not look at him when he's just sitting staring at me - I was just staring back at him and we must have been quite a sight []
 
Oh, and good job Scout!

I did have to correct myself from staring at my dog all the time. It's just so fascinating to smell that wood burning (lol). Zhi learned to touch a target today with her paw. She's used to following her nose and so it was amazing to me how smart she is and yet how long it took her to figure out OH, PAW! [8D] []

I started working with Eddie formally today. It's going to take quite a while just to get him to accept the C/T relationship. He's still resisting the notion of interacting with me. I read an article today about charging a light flash, for working with a betta fish. I took some of the principles they outlined for setting up the C/T sequence for an animal that has no context for working with a human. I was very pleased with Eddie's progress today. He was mightily stressed during the C/T session but later on, he independently sought out my attention while I was washing up the lunch dishes. [sm=clapping hands smiley.gif]

Here's the article. http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=883 I used the concept of, you only get treats here not there to insert some more active factor into it without his having to deal with me directly. I'd place the treats on the floor at each click and he'd turn to eat them (he was facing the corner). If I clicked and he turned to the area BEFORE I moved to put a treat down, I'd C/T several times. I also clicked the couple times he actually glanced at me or flicked an ear in my direction.

It will take a couple more sessions, I feel, before the whole thing is even an experience that is untarnished with aversiveness. But I have to get through somehow and the time is right - he's ready, he just needs to know our terms. []