Is more exercise always the answer?

I think it is more involvement.  If you dog is involved in a variety of activities and as part of the social network (canine and or human) appropriate involvement such as your list is more accurate as the answer to reforming a dog who's behavior is not currently acceptable.  After all the dog behaves in that manner because the people in his/her life have "trained" those behaviors.
 
I too agree that excessive exercise is problematic.  Just because you wear out an unruly teenage dog doesnt mean you have addressed the issues that should be addressed.

I agree sometimes they have enough excersice but not enough discipline, boundries and limitations []

Moved at the request of Ann/Spirtdogs

I just read this at 4 paws the other day.

Are you talking about the psychology 101 article?

I am totally rethinking my strategy since I have read it.

Here is the  full article if anyone is interested.  Hopefully it is the one that the OP referenced so I am not (hopefully)  hijacking a thread.


http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

Actually, I was just spouting, but that's a great page for anyone to read.
I have Myrna Milani's and Coppinger's books, and have seen Ray Coppinger in person at a seminar.

ORIGINAL: JM

I just read this at 4 paws the other day.

Are you talking about the psychology 101 article?

I am totally rethinking my strategy since I have read it.

Here is the  full article if anyone is interested.  Hopefully it is the one that the OP referenced so I am not (hopefully)  hijacking a thread.

[linkhttp://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm]http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm[/link]

 
Thats an article that i call as glass "half empty", viewing a technique in a negative way, i can write an article about +R with a negative perspective but that wont make it true []

Anne, you took the thought right out of my head. I was just thinking about how simplistic the whole pack model is and woefully inadequate to address what I do, even on the most basic level (when I took Ted out to the sheep for the first time last weekend). I've mentioned before that my mentor is about as traditional as they come, but he hates the concept of domination, and says he sees little relationship between what he does and a pack of wolves.

He's not a wolf, he's The Guy Who Says No, and He For Whom It's OK to Try Again. Again, not R+ (though that is in there, too), but he feels stuff like forcing dogs into submission is, well, frankly abusive. I've seen worse abuse than that so I'm not as confident going there - lol - but I know where he's coming from. It can be a slippery slope once you've gotten it in your head that you are aiming for that "humble" attitude.

More exercise is NEVER the answer for a breed like a Border Collie. Their needs expand to match what they are given. They are always pushing the envelope and can always give just a little more and then they'll need that much more tomorrow. Training and a schedule is what they crave and need. It's not about leadership so much with them as trust.

Meandering thoughts. . .

This is a very interesting topic, something I've never really thought too much about,,,that is until I starting fostering a border collie mix!!!!! I've noticed that exercise is one of the most important parts of Charlie's day (she literally begs me to get on my bike to take her for a run), but that is because my lifestyle is so very inadaquate for her breed,,,what she really needs is a long day actually working but unfortunatly the best i can offer her is a couple long runs next to my bike and some play time in the park. I think exercise is important for most dogs, but it's also important to get the right type of exercise for the type of dog you have. If you were to ask my pitt mix how he would define good exercise he would say "o, a good run in the park with a buddy for about half an hour, then maybe a brisk walk home again",,,but if you were to ask the same question to my border collie she would  say "definitly at least an hour running by a bike, with about twenty minutes chasing squirlles in the park, and a little bit of working on "come" "sit" "down" "shake" and anything else I might know,,,,and we should do this about three times a day". My pitt mix doesn't require even close to the same amount of mental stimulation that my bc does, but as long as I am giving them both what they individually need then typically everything goes great. So although I think exercise is important, I think it has to be the right kind of exercise and there has to be something challenging them mentally every day and not just physically.

and just for fun, here is charlie-girl doing her "border collie pose" in the park that I bring her to every day to chase squirles and run around off leash

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: JM

I just read this at 4 paws the other day.

Are you talking about the psychology 101 article?

I am totally rethinking my strategy since I have read it.

Here is the  full article if anyone is interested.  Hopefully it is the one that the OP referenced so I am not (hopefully)  hijacking a thread.

[linkhttp://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm]http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm[/link]

Thats an article that i call as glass "half empty", viewing a technique in a negative way, i can write an article about +R with a negative perspective but that wont make it true []

I can see how you view it that way.  But remember that certain individuals will disagree with your preferred method as well. 

What I don't get is how you refuse to even acknowledge that any other method (than your own preferred method) is viable and might actually work.  In another thread you mentioned that you don't think that a dog's breed influences it's behavior.  If that was the case then all dogs would act exactly the same.  That's simply not true.  Filas are guardy and aggressive towards strangers, Pharaoh Hounds are prey driven, Border Collies have instinct to herd, Labs like to retrieve things.  Yes, you can repress those instincts through threat or perceived threat to the animal, but you can never entirely remove them.  So rather than fight the instinct, why not use the instinct to your advantage?

From your avatar I take it you have huskies.  Do you allow them the morning howl that the majority of huskies, mals and sammies enjoy?  Or did you repress that behavior?  I'm not saying that all behaviors are acceptable to all people, but it's easier to redirect behavior than to eliminate it.  Redirection can be successfully accomplished without the use of force, and you don't have to exercise a dog to to get obedience; despite what certain "authorities" might have you believe.

as the dog gets some mental stimulation, even if he has a behavior problem you are trying to address.

 
Actually, I find it easier to work with her after mental stimulation like just going over her sit, stay, etc. that she already knows more so than if we walk or go for a hike.  I've seen her way more exhausted from a day of learning than a day multiple walks. 

While a very well written article like the one referenced provides valid points, it doesn't matter when it's addressed to a divided audience who has already made up its mind WAY before even starting the article. There's a point where no amount of logic and reasoning will do against fanatism and blind faith. In the past I've been criticized for using the term "narrow minded" so I'm not even going to try and weave it into a sentence here.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I can see how you view it that way.  But remember that certain individuals will disagree with your preferred method as well. 

What I don't get is how you refuse to even acknowledge that any other method (than your own preferred method) is viable and might actually work.  In another thread you mentioned that you don't think that a dog's breed influences it's behavior.  If that was the case then all dogs would act exactly the same.  That's simply not true.  Filas are guardy and aggressive towards strangers, Pharaoh Hounds are prey driven, Border Collies have instinct to herd, Labs like to retrieve things.  Yes, you can repress those instincts through threat or perceived threat to the animal, but you can never entirely remove them.  So rather than fight the instinct, why not use the instinct to your advantage?

From your avatar I take it you have huskies.  Do you allow them the morning howl that the majority of huskies, mals and sammies enjoy?  Or did you repress that behavior?  I'm not saying that all behaviors are acceptable to all people, but it's easier to redirect behavior than to eliminate it.  Redirection can be successfully accomplished without the use of force, and you don't have to exercise a dog to to get obedience; despite what certain "authorities" might have you believe.

Oh no i have never said that +R does not work, of course it does IF i want to teach my dog how to sit, heel, roll over, retreive, etc which would be impossible with behavioral techniques and actually i could say the same about some +R people and "I don't get is how you refuse to even acknowledge that any other method (than your own preferred method) is viable and might actually work." []

I am sure that in the other thread i actually said that breeds dont influence agressive behavior which is different that just regular behavior, aggressive behavior is an unstable behavior, any mind from any dog would rather to be calm than aggressive, there is powerful breeds indeed that make the dogs get closer to aggressivness if the mind is unstable, but if the dog mind and body is balanced then there is no way that dog could show aggressivness because that is result of like i said an unbalanced mind

Like i said in the other thread, force does not means aggressiveness, i need force to lift the spoon that i use to eat but that does not mean i'm aggressive to the spoon, i use force to get up in the morning but that does not mean i am aggressive towards the bed []

And no, you dont need to use force every single time and actually that means 80% of the time, i dont know why some people think that behavioral techniques means using force 100% of the times, that means they dont have full knowledge about those methods, is easier to see the glass "full empty" to actually learn what it really is

I should clarify.

An hour long power walk on a 20ft lunge line (running back and forth, sniff sniff, pee pee) may be a good ideal for a young dog who will spend most of the day in a crate while the owner works.

Maybe not so good for a 12 year old whose owner is home all day and engages him in routine drives/games/excersizes/training spurts.

Maybe a 15 to 20 minute power walk will  be better for his health and stress levels.

So, that being said…my post was all about my techniques, not yours.

I only posted the link because I thought the op(to whom I apologize) referenced it.

Truthfully, I don't think posting information is as much about riling the 'other side' as it  to help those of us who are trying to find our way in this mess.

This constant defensiveness going on is doing nothing but discouraging that.

I mean really, one does think twice about posting material  knowing a battle will ensue.

 

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: JM

I just read this at 4 paws the other day.

Are you talking about the psychology 101 article?

I am totally rethinking my strategy since I have read it.

Here is the  full article if anyone is interested.  Hopefully it is the one that the OP referenced so I am not (hopefully)  hijacking a thread.

[linkhttp://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm]http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm[/link]

Thats an article that i call as glass "half empty", viewing a technique in a negative way, i can write an article about +R with a negative perspective but that wont make it true []

Don't worry, jm, you don't need to apologize to me.  I know that your post was honestly asking about the source of my material, part of which is the same study quoted on the site you mention.  A lot of us really do read the literature. []
I don't need to rile the "other side", they are riled enough that there are many who don't share their idolatry of you-know-who. 
The point I was trying to make was eloquently stated by Rebecca, and is common not only to BC's but to some other herding and working breeds, which was my original point. 
No amount of exercise will permanently dissuade an aggressive dog from being aggressive, and aggression is something you cannot completely eradicate.  Why?  Because it is a survival mechanism that all dogs have in varying degree.  What you can do is modify the circumstances or reduce the frequency with which the dog feels he must rely on it as a default behavior.  So, you classically condition a fearful dog to accept strangers patting him, or you get a dog aggressive dog to focus on the handler, but if you "press the dog's buttons" strongly enough, an aggressive dog will still bite, and a fearful dog will fight or flee.  The handler's job is to create a situation where the dog looks to the handler for guidance and does not decide on his own what to do.  That's leadership, but it doesn't always involve slapping the dog on a treadmill or tying it to a moving object and trotting it to the point of exhaustion.  That really doesn't teach the dog anything except that they are tired - tired dogs are good dogs, but only until the tired wears off.  For them to default to a good behavior, such as seeking permission from the handler, requires training of a more lasting nature.