Mic and other trainers...

Here's what I wonder about.  In Bones Would Rain from the Sky, Clothier talks about a study done on cats.  They hooked the cats up to an EKG to measure brain activity and everytime a beep went off there was a spike in brain activity to indicate the cats heard the noise.  The scientists then put a rat in a cage in front of the cats and made the beep go off again.  There was no spike, indicating that the cats never even heard the noise when they were focused on the rats.  I'd really like to read that study as I wonder if my basenjis even hear me when they are in full chase mode.  I've seen my brindle dog slam into a fence (thankfully it was a wire fence and not solid and had some give to it) while chasing a rabbit.  The rabbit went through the fence.  My dog knew the fence was there, he'd lived in that house, with that fence for a couple of years before the incident.  Of couse I haven't seen him do that again, so maybe he did learn something.
 
Having said that, I believe the key to getting a 100% reliable recall is getting the dog to respond to "come" without even thinking.  Muscle memory.  But if the dog literally doesn't hear you call him, I'm not sure how it would work. 

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji But if the dog literally doesn't hear you call him, I'm not sure how it would work. 

 
This is SO interesting!  I agree completely - when dogs are so focused on something it does seem like they are not aware of anything other than what has their attention.
 
People go on about hounds/terriers needing a lot of work but I see the same with my friend's brilliant border collies, retrievers and Shepherds... When they are chasing after a ball or herding dogs, they ignore their owners completely.  It seems to be more acceptable that their dogs don't respond in such instances than when my hound starts hunting.
 

That study would be an interesting read for sure.  Selective hearing is pretty common in many species.  For instance when my niece was very young we worried that her hearing was not good.  She could sit in front of the tv and you had to literally yell her name for her to hear you.  I mean most kids have selective hearing at times but Megan was very often.  So my sister has her hearing checked and we found that her hearing is actually closer to a dogs range than a human range.  She could hear so well that she had to learn to tune things out.  This has made her a phenomonal hockey player.  Likewise a girl on her team is deaf and she has developed he periferal vision to the point of excellence. 

Now selective hearing is just that, selective.  If the noise setting off the beep in the cat experiment had been the sound of a can opener they probably would have heard it.  Likewise if your voice is the most important thing to your dog he will hear you.  Unfortunately for most of us other important things come up as far as our dogs are concerned.  My voice is not a big deal to him if there is something to play with on  the other side of the park.  So the trick is to give him a word that will become more important to him.  I just have not figured out what that word should mean to him.  I'm sure if I gave him a steak everytime I yelled jackpot, he would boot it back to me.  However I cannot give him enough steak to practice this to 100%.  So what is there that I can treat him with that he will find all important?  It has to be a very high value treat if its to compete with just running free for my huskies.

agilebasenji, you don't get much more high drive than some BC's, but you can still call them off sheep.  It's more about not letting the dog EVER realize that "come" might be optional.  That's the basic premise of Really Reliable Recall, if you think about it - it's the primary reason for choosing a "really reliable word".  The reason "come" doesn't work any more is that if the dog hears the word and you don't insure that he is successful at coming, he learns that he doesn't have to, and "come" becomes just so much background noise that he can ignore.  And, what you allow, as one of my fellow trainers puts it, you are teaching...

I've seen my brindle dog slam into a fence (thankfully it was a wire fence and not solid and had some give to it) while chasing a rabbit.

Emma has done this, in her own yard, chasing frisbees, on several occasions. She also slammed, full speed, into a tree, while chasing a frisbee. She's a frisbeebrain.

It's more about not letting the dog EVER realize that "come" might be optional.

That's what I was told, in my puppy obedience class. NEVER say a word, unless you can MAKE the dog do it (not forcefully, not mean at all.... you just have to REALLY connect the word with the action). We put the puppies, individually, on a long lead, and called them, then tugged them in our general direction, and reeled them in. We were told, repeatedly, to NEVER use a word that we didn't mean. I listened. At first, I didn't use commands unless Emma was on a leash. I'd have treats, and ask her to come, then treat her several times. Ask her to sit, and treat her. Ask her to down, and treat her. She never had a choice. Now, she can be across the yard, in pursuit, and I can yell, "DOWN!" and she drops.

agilebasenji, you don't get much more high drive than some BC's, but you can still call them off sheep.

 
Ah, yes, BUT BC's have been bred to interact with people and respond to people since the breed has developed.  Basenjis have not.  I would also bet that BC's have been bred to be called off sheep.  After all, a herding dog that the shepherd can't call off sheep is of no use.  Right?

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji

Ah, yes, BUT BC's have been bred to interact with people and respond to people since the breed has developed.  Basenjis have not.  I would also bet that BC's have been bred to be called off sheep.  After all, a herding dog that the shepherd can't call off sheep is of no use.  Right?

And if this is a reasonable excuse, then a husky that has been bred to run for a long long time should have no recall at all.  And I refuse to believe that I cannot teach my dogs a reliable recall.  Ideally I'd like to be able to walk my dogs off leash anywhere in town and not have to worry.  Thats not likely to happen unless maybe Lesley herself comes up to teach my dogs.  However I do like to know that I can unleash my animals in a safe place and know that I can call them back when its time to go home.

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji
Ah, yes, BUT BC's have been bred to interact with people and respond to people since the breed has developed.  Basenjis have not.  I would also bet that BC's have been bred to be called off sheep.  After all, a herding dog that the shepherd can't call off sheep is of no use.  Right?

 
I definately agree with this!  But like huskymom, I have a hard time facing the reality that I will not always be able to call Dodger off the hunt.  So far I have been able to but it doesn't mean that I always will.
It is definately a challenge to get a breed that's an "independent thinker" to love to work with their handler but I think that's the beauty of them.  I love that Dodger is going to challenge me - it forces me to work just as hard as he does and it is such an amzing feeling to know that we have gone farther than some dogs that are bred to work with their handler. 

I definately agree with this! But like huskymom, I have a hard time facing the reality that I will not always be able to call Dodger off the hunt.

Yes, well, that's the same boat I'm in.  I'm an optimist, which is why when I get my next basenji, I'll try the RRR.  I've fostered a basenji who wanted nothing more than to be with people.  I've never seen him with prey, but I'd guess he could be trained to do a reliable recall easier than my high prey drive basenji.  My tri basenji has lower prey drive than my brindle and I think I'd have a better chance training Tri-ing a call off prey than my brindle.  However, it is my brindle dog that is easier to train.  He loves working with me. 

I also think what Mic says makes sense - about each drive being an empty glass each morning and we, as trainers, need to fill them.  So now I need to figure out how to do that.  Ideally I could use a lunge whip with a plastic bag attached but this has no interst for my multiple best in field lure coursing champion.
 
Edited to add:  When I'm talking about a recall, what I'm really talking about is a call off prey.  My dogs have fine recalls when there are no rabbits around. 

 
With a high drive dog I would typically use an e-collar.  I remember reading that study done on the cats, and that is one reason the e-collar is important with these dogs. When the dog does not "hear" you, the e-collar makes it possible for you to reach out and "tap" them. 

Well, hounds were bred to hunt independently (the hunter just catches up when the hounds tree the varmint LOL), and I have managed to train a recall on Maska.  Any dog of any breed can learn the recall, and the earlier you start, and the more consistent your training, the better the result. 
I have Huskies and Basenjis in my classes, and the difference between those that learn the recall and those that don't is largely the difference in whether their handlers apply the techniques properly and consistently or not.  Admittedly, there are some very difficult dogs, but if you can find something that they are willing to work for, operant conditioning can take care of the rest.

Mic, I'm not opposed to ecollars.  My only problem with them is the cost of getting 3 at a time.  Admittedly I was a fool to get 3 huskies that are all born in the same year.  I now have 3 puppies to train a recall.  Is it advisable to use an ecollar at some times and not at others.  Say take one dog to the park to work on a recall while the others stay home, come home switch up dogs and collars and head back to the park?  And then when I have all 3 dogs with me not work on the recall?  Come to think of it the girls come back when Crusher does most of the time.  They are hogs and the only thing they cannot stomach is the thought of Crusher getting a treat when they get none.

If I had three ecollars, I'd get confused about which button was who's and shock the wrong dog, but I'm blonde.

I've gotta start working on Teenie's recall. She's evil. If I can teach recall to a nine year old buttheaded Dachshund, I think I can call myself accomplished[] She's so bad. I still haven't gotten her to ASK (or WAIT) to go out. She pooped on the floor, just a few minutes ago..... *sigh*

Thankfully, Emma is a master dog trainer, and has gotten her to sit politely while I eat, and come while we're in the yard. I just have to get Teenie to come of her own accord (without Emma biting her and shoving her along).

So I was just talking to my friend and she has been on a search for a recall training method.  She got this from a trainer on another board.  It sounds pretty good to me. 

The first thing to do is get a noise that is loud and unfamiliar to the dog, like a ref's whistle.  Then once a day for a week or so, blow the whistle for no reason whatsoever.  While the dog is still trying to figure out what the heck that was, give him a super yummy treat.  She suggested those little white containers of wet gourmet dog food for the spoiled little rich mutts.  Understandably a smaller dog couldnt have a whole one of thes probably, ours however could.  Then you act like nothing happened.  There is no other connection besides the noise and the food.  After the dog gets used to it, practice very rarely, no more than once a day.  Its just an emergency recall but thats what she is after anyway.  Her dog recalls fine when not on the hunt.  Does anyone see any problems with this?  And I was wondering if you could eventually eliminate the yummy treat for something a little smaller?  Or would this take away the effectiveness?