Dog Community

Mic and other trainers...

Posted : 3/29/2006 11:40:37 PM

I was reading on another thread about prey drive. Crusher has next to none so far. He will lay in the back yard with chickadees pecking the ground all around him!

Crusher's bro on the other hand is a hunter. He has also started chasing cars. BAD NEWS I know. So my friend has decided to put up a fence on her property to contain him. I have no problem with this. I think it is a great idea. The problem I have is that she seems to have all but givin up on controlling the behaviour otherwise. We argued for quite sometime yesterday about it. Her opinion is that its instinct and she cant compete with that. He will chase cars or animals with no care to the fact that she is calling him. My opinion is that while it is certainly instinct to chase animals, I have yet to see a wolf chasing down a car on the highway. And lower ranked wolves do as they are told by the alpha of the pack. If they are told not to chase, they do not chase. As her role in her pack should be alpha, I believe there has got to be a way to teach him when it is acceptable to give chase. To be fair she did come around a bit. I suggested that she give him a command for chase and come time he will look to her for the signal. Is this even close? She will still have to contain him of course, but I think she should be prepared for the inevitable escape. Also Keira and Onyx are developing prey drives and I would like to know how to go about controlling them.

Mic

Posted : 3/30/2006 12:15:04 AM

I think your friend is taking the EASY way out. Also, if a dog has strong enough prey drive...they will escape. Over or under...they will figure something.

First thing she needs to do is meet those prey drive needs. I like to call this filling the reservoir (stick with me here). Dogs have a list of innate needs that need to be met every single day. When they wake in the morning all of these reservoirs are empty and they need to be filled. The reservoir of prey drive happens to be a little longer on this dog than others. She needs to play some chase games (laser pointer, remote heli, BALL ON A STRING, go on constructive walks, dog park, anyway she can put some of that drive to use will be helpful. This will make life easier. Some people also confuse "prey drive" with a bored dog trying to entertain itself.

Second, she needs to do some serious obedience work. This dog needs to learn to give attention, to come, to heel, and to down stay. If she masters these four commands her dogs prey drive will have little impact on her life.

The obedience will take some time, especially if there is really a strong prey drive issue, but the only thing stopping her from fixing the problem are her excuses, nothing more. Tell her to get to work for the dogs sake!

spiritdogs

Posted : 3/30/2006 7:45:58 AM

Mic's right. If I can get my Aussie puppy to "leave it" and the "leave it" item is a live rabbit, anything's possible, right?
Drivey dogs need a "job", but it doesn't need to be chasing cars. It can be agility, flyball, fetch, or any other similar activity that helps take the place of the predatory behavior that they would be practicing in the wild..

huskymom

Posted : 3/30/2006 8:45:24 AM

I agree with both of you. I believe not even bothering to try is just asking for trouble. She is starting to realize that there will be some time where she will have to be able to call him back. When we started argueing about it she said if he sees an animal he is just going to chase it until he either catches it or gives up. And I countered with,"What if it is a porcupine?" She got pretty quiet pretty quick. So she does understand that she has to work on this. That said, this dog killed a fox at 6 months old. Anne he also has a job. He is a sled dog in the winter. But right now his harness is put away. She runs him with her bike everyday. And she is teaching the alphabet. And he has 2 other dogs to play with.(he is one of the huskies in the "What can you teach a stupid dog post" although not the stupid one) Mic its funny that you mentioned a remote heli. I thought of a plane and a car but figured he would probably catch the latter and she has too many trees to fly a plane out there. A heli would work though. Thanks for your suggestions, Any more would be useful as would the proper argument to use with her so she really gets it.

jetty

Posted : 3/30/2006 9:54:43 AM

I find this interesting and even though this is slightly off-topic I hope it's still acceptable to post! (I hope you don't mind huskymom!)

What about hounds? I have read many times on this board (and others) that you can never fully trust a hound off-leash. Now isn't that down to instinct and prey drive as well?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I sense that everyone who has posted so far thinks that with some work, this husky (or mal?) could be trained to "ignore" his prey drive when it is unsafe. So why can't hounds be the same way?

Catherine

Posted : 3/30/2006 9:56:02 AM

so i've always wondered - if you do chase games like following a remote control heli/plane, or even lure coursing, that doesn't just increase their prey drive? i guess i always thought that letting them go after a "prey" (whether it's an animal or object) will just increase their prey drive. but from what i'm reading and in your opinion, this just helps fulfill a natural instinct and maybe decreases their need if they get to do it every day?

huskymom

Posted : 3/30/2006 10:42:10 AM

I think that the idea is that they have to do it everyday. If it is a job they will be less likely to do it at other times. Just as with a dog that digs(also a fave of huskies) if you get him in a sandbox and dig with him and when you are done tell him to stop, he is less likely to dig in your garden. His digging requirements have been met. I would tend to think that to go one step farther with the prey drive, chasing is not quite enough. I would add a command to chase so that the dog would eventually come to expect a command and would not give chase without this command.

Mic

Posted : 3/30/2006 12:50:55 PM

[font="microsoft sans serif"][color=#003399]What about hounds?

[/color][/font]
Any dog can be trained to be trusted off leash. The type of motivators you use determine how quickly this can be achieved. For instance, if you use an e-collar, ANY dog can be trained quite readily to operate of leash. Using strictly +R training may take a little longer, but solid off leash results can be accomplished.

It takes daily practice with some breeds, but the desired results can certainly be achieved.

if you do chase games like following a remote control heli/plane, or even lure coursing, that doesn't just increase their prey drive?

If all depends how the game ends. It the prey drive is activated and prey is obtained (while controlling the level of drive) then the need to chase is satisfied (and prey drive is decreased). If prey drive is activated and the prey is not obtained (or is obtained at an aggravated level of drive) overall drive increases. This method is frequently used motivating protection dogs.

To help the dog in question, I would initiate a chase game, and before the drive increases to an undesirable level I allow them to catch the prey. Repeat this process over and over. The dog gets tired of the chase, and quits. Done daily, you will see a substantial decrease in motivation to chase prey.

If the dog is just put behind a fence prey drive will increase.

dasher

Posted : 3/30/2006 1:46:01 PM

Very interesting Mic,
I too had similar beliefs that catherinec has. I have a JRT as well as 2 indoor cats. Now granted he has never acted aggressivly toward the cats, but if he tries to chase them he is told to "leave it" which he does. I also choose not to do any go-to-ground trials or lure coursing b/c I don't want to encourage his instinct to kill small furry critters. On the other hand I do play fetch with him at least 2x per day, so I guess that is meeting his prey drive "reservoir" if you will? I guess that would make sense as he gets to chase the ball, catch the ball, and repeat? Let me know if I am getting this[

]

Mic

Posted : 3/30/2006 1:51:18 PM

You got it!

agilebasenji

Posted : 3/30/2006 6:22:32 PM

I am not 100% sure that someone could train a high drive basenji to recall off a rabbit. With my next basenji (we're always in training for our next dog, aren't we?) I plan on getting Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall dvd and follow it religiously. I'm an optimist and I'd love to know that I could call a basenji off a rabbit on a sunny, warm day. The prophet Muhammad said "trust in God, but tie your camel." I translate that to "Train your basenji, but keep him on lead."

Of course I have done outdoor agility trials with my basenjis and qualified, so I do take them off lead when they have a job to focus on. But if a rabbit were to cross his path while he's doing agility, I'd bet he's going to chase that rabbit.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 3/30/2006 8:45:47 PM

I think I need a Basenji.

I've called Emma off of a running rabbit three or four times, and away from a bloody fight (which she was WINNING) twice. She has awesome recall. I wasn't sure that she'd come the first time I called her from something important, but I said it like I meant it, and rewarded her VERY heavily when she came. It must have worked.

huskymom

Posted : 3/30/2006 10:43:30 PM

Does anyone know the basic principal behind Lesley Nelson's Really Reliable Recall. I'm not sure but it seems to be idog's best kept secret.

dasher

Posted : 3/31/2006 9:43:32 AM

Dasher's recall is not 100% but it is pretty good considering he is a 18 month old JRT. The other day while I was at the office (My office is located at a small private aiport so we have lots of land) a sandpiper flew right in front of him. I called him and he stopped for a second but then continued on for about 50 feet. I called again and this time he stopped. [

] I was pretty pleased, but I think it helped that the bird was no longer at eye level and he flew higher. I think if it was a rabbit however it would have been a different story. [&:]

tashakota

Posted : 3/31/2006 3:00:18 PM

I bought the DVD Huskymom. It's awesome! But I'm not sure if I can do it. I just don't have the kind of time with my adult dogs, that it's going to need. Next puppy, YOU BET!!! I have seen some improvement already in some of what I'm doing but it's not great and not enough. So it takes a lot of work and would probably work better in a single dog household or at least one where the others are already trained. In my case, none of them are good. lol...