Behaviorist help!

I've watch Cesar's show a bit and read parts of his book when I borrowed it - but I didn't feel that it really showed me what to do - it was more just a summary of what he did slammed into 5 minutes, or just talked about how dogs "work" rather than how to actually train them.  Maybe I'm missing something.  Were the DVD's better?
 
And I truly believe that we are not helping his SA - I don't know that we caused it, but I can't figure out to help it myself.  Hopefully on Tuesday I will have insight []

I saw an episode with Cesar dealing with an SA dog and it was pretty much the beginning of the end of me thinking he knew what he was talking about. SA is not a dominance issue, it is a mental illness. I saw him try to 'treat' this SA dog with his usual philosophy and, having an SA dog myself, I could see it wasn't working. By the end of the segment, the dog was pretty much the same as before. There was some creative editing to make it seem like there was a change, but honestly, I didn't see it. I think the voiceover was something to the effect of "The owner still has a lot more work to do." Well, yeah, because there hasn't been any change in the dog's condition, so I'd say so!
 
Besides, every episode of that show has a disclaimer stating to not try these methods at home without consulting a professional.

I agree that SA's not rooted in dominance -- it's rooted in frustration, which is why exercise works for our anxious greyhound. (Cesar advocates exercise for dogs with SA dogs, by the way.) We went through obedience training with our greyhound, as well as with our aggressive Chihuahua, and we found that a behavior-based approach worked better for us. (I even spoke with behaviorist Patricia McConnell by phone about our Chihuahua; I'm not sure she does phone consultations anymore, but she's fabulous and her books are definitely worth seeking out: [linkhttp://www.dogsbestfriendtraining.com/]dogsbestfriendtraining.com[/link].) And no, success didn't happen overnight -- or over the course of an episode of "Dog Whisperer" -- but it is happening. We work on it every day.

As long as you get professional advice that works for you and your dog, choose whatever approach you like!

Cesar isn't performing any magic, and the "leadership walk" is merely equivalent to providing the amount of exercise that a dog normally needs.  We think in terms of "I take him for a walk three times a day", when the dog is thinking, "Hey, I'm supposed to be retrieving ducks out of cold water all day" or "Where are all the sheep I'm supposed to be herding".  Most of us living a modern lifestyle are not equipped to give dogs sufficient exercise - that's why we make up games for them like dog agility. []
Exercise makes a huge difference in a dog's life, and obedience training, agility, tracking, or some other dog sport can give them mental exercise, too, which is often just as tiring as physical exercise.
Dogs that are anxious, for any reason, need a strong leader, but one who is kind and predictable and whom the dog can trust to keep them out of harm's way.
For dogs that suffer SA, Patricia McConnell, Ph.D., a behaviorist from Wisconsin, has written "I'll Be Home Soon".  It's a guide on prevention and treatment of SA.
With regard to CM, we go round and round about this on this forum, but again, he has no degree, and is not a certified behaviorist, so the Denver Dumb Friends League advice applies.  He is just an illegal immigrant who got lucky enough to have some ability to handle dogs unafraid, and got on the Oprah show.  But, most trainers and behaviorists don't get bitten as often as he does LOL.  Why?  Because they know dog behavior and can read the dogs better.  Anyone who would like to learn how to do that should go to some aggression seminars.  Sue Sternberg's is particularly good - she explains how to tell when a dog will bite you, and where on your body he will bite you.  And, if you really want a good behavioral guide, get Karen Overall's book.  She's a veterinary behaviorist that some folks think is the best in the country.

Cesar has rarely been bitten. Read his book, watch any of his DVDs. And Cesar's now a legal resident of the U.S. with a damn good job.

I don't know why the hostility toward someone who's spreading the "it's not the dog's fault" message. As a person who works with dogs professionally and voluntarily, this message is all I care about.

Who cares if he doesn't have a degree? If you agree with his philosophy and appreciate his experience, his approach may work for you. Many dog trainers don't have degrees, but does that mean they're not helpful?

Yes, I'm pro-Cesar, but I'm also pro-crate, pro-clicker, pro-Patricia McConnell, pro-Karen Overall -- I'm in favor of whatever works for you and your dog. I'm on this forum to share what's worked for me, not criticize what's worked for you.

 

Boy, I wish there was step by step how to instruction manual.  So much material and advice and when you are in the situation you need immediate results.  For Marvin, I am managing his SA from two angles.  Desensitizing him for being alone and desensitizing him from the things he absolutely loves.  I think I have to have more control of things that overstimulate Marvin.  Sort of trying to balance his emotions. With Marvin what I am doing with the limited time I have is:    - Marvin's 9'x10' kennel contains the bare minimum so he has nothing to destroy.  Half crate, fleece flow, 3 chew toys, and paper on the cement floor.  I am looking into new flooring but what I have seen I do not like.    - Each morning I do a desensitizing exercise where I pretend I leave but I actually am hiding and watching Marvin.  When Marvin starts exhibiting his anxious behavior, I say "BED" while still hiding.  He then goes in his half crate and lies down.  I then pop out my head so I am visible and say "Good Dog, Marvin".  I then pretend to leave and do it over and over for about an hour.  When I do actually leave I listen at his basement window and when I hear whimpering, I say "Bed".  I can not see him but he does get quiet.    - In the evening, Marvin is allowed outside 4 times with each time being a different situation.                        1.  Outside with all dogs and me.  Very high social event.                        2.  Outside with Marvin and Sassy (Marvin's playmate)                        3.  Outside with Marvin and Petro (Marvin was aggressive toward Petro and now he is indifferent.                        4.  Outside where Marvin is by himself (He does not like this and at first barked and howled.  Now that I got his barking and howling under conrol I noticed he poops during this time.  This week I am going to do this in the morning so maybe I will have less poop to clean up in his kennel and consequently have more time.                        5.  Inside, I repeat different situations using the kitchen to restrict Marvin and also letting the other dogs have outside time.                        6.  All the dogs and me spend a little time in the basement and in the kennels just laying around.    - In situation #1, I am including training on a leash reenforcing the commands sit, stay, and come.  Marvin is slow in learning this because of the other dogs distracting him. Things that I am prohibiting Marvin because he absolutely loves and I have to desensitize because I think he gets over stimulated (this is temporary):    -  No walks outside the property (when I allow this, it will cure his pooping in the kennel)    -  No car rides (when I allow this, I will be using the crate to desensitize Marvin to a crate)    -  No higly socializing events (for now - no Petsmart dog showing, no visit to sister, no visitors with dogs)    -  No special food treats I am not fooling around with Marvin.  This is a very serious condition, is very time consuming, and a very expensive situation.  Please critique because of the messages that I have read above, I want to make sure I am doing Marvin no harm.   What I noticed this past weekend was Marvin natural instinct has a hound is starting to come out.  Attentive and alert to squirrels and smelling.  I am not familar with hunting (play hunting) using hounds but this natural instinct is what I was looking for and I hope to take advantage of it.

We've done a fair bit with exercising and desensitizing.  We also put him in his crate for a decent amount of time before we leave - so that he thinks maybe we aren't leaving.  Or perhaps when we do leave he doesn't catch on for a bit since he can't see/hear the door (we have the TV and a/c on with him in the room and it's far from the door so I kinda think he can't hear, but maybe his doggy ears still can).

DPU - how much exercise does Marvin get?  If you don't let him off the property?  Do you think that's adequate for him - I forget how old he is, so it may be enough, but perhaps you could consider some way of ensuring enough exercise.

I never thought of depriving the dog of things that overstimulate - but then again, there isn't too much that gets Sammy all riled up.  He's not particularly food motivated, and not all that interested in toys, though he does play with a few occassionally.  The only thing I think he truly likes is belly rubs, but I'm not about to stop those! []   So I guess it might be a good way to avoid too much excitement - like when you leave and coem home, its supposed to be very low-key and not a big deal, so maybe it works like that. Hmmm.... wouldn't know how to do it with Sammy, but if it works for you and Marvin, that's good. 

There are some "step by step" things in Patricia McDonnell's book I'll be home soon.  She outlines a pretty good  thing you can do to desensitize them, etc....  but I'm having a hard time adapting some of it to our case, and I think we're not doing a complete job - rather a poor job of completely desensitizing him so that's where our problem lies.  But, again, why I'm willing to go with a behaviorist since I just can't do it with just me and DH - we tried for over 3 months and that was enough on our own.  Marvin is a foster, though, right?  So maybe you wouldn't want to get into too much with behaviorist due to the cost.  But, I will post after tomorrow night and let everyone know what the trainer says about Sammy.  I'm very willing to do the work if someone can explain to me EXACTLy what to do!  []
 
EDIT - I forgot, we have a hound who is definitely into squirrells, and will follow his nose anywhere, so it is good to see Marvin showing his true colors in that respect.  Sammy actually tried to go up a tree after a squirrel!  Didn't work too well and I got scared when the squirrel looked him in the eye and made noises back at him so we of course left the squirrel alone.

a lot of experts recommend using anti-anxiety medications during the early re-training phase of separation anxiety. It's a mental illness. You may need medical help to overcome it.
 
I'd like to address the exercise issue: so many people walk their dogs on leash and think they are "exercising" the dog. Sorry. Walking at a human's pace on a leash does diddly-squat for exercising most dogs. Which is a big reason why we have so many behavioral problems in dogs nowadays. Dogs need to run. Dogs need work and mental stimulation. With current leash laws you may need to get very creative in how you exercise your dog. If you're currently doing two leash walks a day, you'd be much better off spending the time of one of those walks doing something more active and engaging. Combination fetch and training games. Informal agility. Weight-pulling. Scootering. Jogging.

The anti-anxiety pills arrived on Saturday.  I am holding off mostly because NicholeS gives Sammy pills and they do not seem to work.  As long as Marvin is making the slightest improvement-no pills.  Mudpuppy, from your message maybe Marvin does not have SA but just never had consistently in his life.
 
With 5 dogs in the house, 3 Great Danes and 2 fosters, individual exercise regimes is out of the question.  I believe they get adequate exercise in their backyard time.  Chasing each other, playing tug-of-war, wrestling.  They each konk out at different times.  I get up at 4:30am and leave for work at 7am just so they can get their backyard time.  I do have a full set of agility equipment and my Drizzle (picture in profile) is trained to do agility.  She is a unique Great Dane that is super hyper and that is how I released her energy (again in the backyard).  She puts the Border Collies to shame.
 
Wow!  Sammy does not get overstimulated by anything?  I like to know what the Behaviorist says about that.  With Marvin, I just have to look at the garage door and he right away thinks he is going for a car ride.

mudpuppy - can you tell me how to "teach" a dog to play fetch?  I would love to play with Sammy but he just looks at me funny and I end up going to get the ball, frisbee, etc.  When we walk we do it around 3.5 or so mph, so it's brisk - ut I can't keep up jogging for long times without passing out myself.  But I will try to get him some better exercise more often. 

And at least once and sometimes twice we let him run in an enclosed baseball diamond, since I dont usually feel comfortable going to the dog park with his intact-male-dog aggression.  I will talk to the behaviorist about that and exercise when she is here.

DPU - Sammy has been TERRIFIC the past few days - it *might* be due to the increase in the meds; maybe its that we put the a/c back in and he likes the noise.  Maybe he just likes the blanket in there he now has (he chewed up a bunch so we didn't always give him one)  Not sure, but he has been fantastically good the past few days when we leave him.  Knock on wood.  So it might just take some playing with the meds - but like mudpuppy says, you might need it in order to retrain marvin the right way.  IF he is getting better without them, then that is terrific as well, and good to you for working so hard with him!!  Just keep the meds then just in case.  In our case, the meds were only masking the problem - and now I want to FIX it and I can't get that on my own. 

Will update after the behaviorist tonight. []
 
Oh, and the ONLY thing I have found to get Sammy rather excited is a Dingo bone. Otherwise, he is almost indifferent.   He's chewing on something and I take it away, no bother, doesn't even come after me!!  So yeah, I have a weird one []

Well, we spent about 2 hours talking to the behaviorist - I'm tired and need to get up early, so I'll keep this brief.
 
Basically, Sammy is frustrated and perhaps a bit bored and showing it in ways that mimick SA, but he is not consistent enough with these things that she feels it is true SA.  He might have some claustrophobia - so he hates being in a crate.  But outside of one he gets into stuff, but that destruction is mostly just normal dog behavior. 
 
So..... the treatments we are to try include:
1. More exercise ( of course)
2. Try to leave him where he can see a window and watch us leave (there is a whole philosophy behind this - google Trish King)
3. Record our voices and us saying his name and have it repeat forever
 
But this is addition to everything else we already do, so by no means is a comprehensive list of how to deal with SA/"fake SA"
 
Even the blood from his gums he left on his crate was most likely from severe frustration, according to her.  She watched several days' worth of video (quickly) and even though the condition of his crate says SA, his videos didn't lead her there.  So the webcam thing is a GREAT idea.
 
Anyway, if anyone wants more info on what she told us or what we do, etc, drop me an email or a pm via my profile.
 
g'night!

ORIGINAL: NicoleS

mudpuppy - can you tell me how to "teach" a dog to play fetch?  I would love to play with Sammy but he just looks at me funny and I end up going to get the ball, frisbee, etc. 

 
Nicole... this question wasn't for me, but I found it very easy to teach my dog fetch, so I'll tell you what I did.  First, you need to start with something the dog REALLY likes, if he's not too into any of his toys, try a bone or rawhide.  Then, engage the dogs interest in the toy.  Have him smell it, then move it around so the dog can watch it.  Wait for the dog to seem like he really wants to play with it.  Then, throw it.  If the dog is sufficiently interested in the toy, he should go after it. 
 
Next is getting the dog to return it (which was the hard part with my dog, who wanted to run of and chew on the things I threw her, or wanted to play keep away with it).  I started fetch on a 20 ft. lead, and after throwing the item and saying "fetch", I reeled her back to me once she had it in her mouth.  She already knew "drop it", so once I had her in front of me I told her to drop it.  Once the item was at my feet, I gave her a treat and told her good fetch.  It didn't take her too long to piece together the series of events required for "fetch", and now we do it off the lead, and I can even get her to sit and stay after I throw the toy, and she won't fetch until told!

For those of you trying to get more exercise in, have you looked into a bike attachement?  I have a Springer bike attachment and really liked it (when I used it).

Hey, thanks for the advice on fetching.....  There isn't much that he's completely excited about, but I can sacrifice a bone or squeak toy to the outdoors to try this with him.  For your lead, do you use an actual store bought long line?  I have some rope here that might work for a bit. 
 
It would be terrific if he would fetch to tire his butt out!  I will try it a few times, maybe this weekend and see where we end up.
 
agilebasenji - I would try the bike attachment but I would only feel safe using that away from roads, and there isn't anywhere close by where I could do that.  Otherwise I would have to take a bike to the park and there are too many dogs there for comfort - if Sammy decided to go after one, down I would go.  I don't trust that he would stay by me and not try to chase something.  Have you had any experience with that? A dog trying to ru one way and the bike another? how'd it work out?
 
Thanks for the ideas though!  I'll keep them in mind for future use

I loved that picture of all your dogs in the yard in some other thread - I adopted a dane mix last year and through research and him I have fallen in love with the breed.  Mine is definitely hyper though, mucho energy!  Last visit to the vet he strongly suggested agility for him.  Currently I haven't been able to make the commitment to do it right but I'm hoping to get there.  In the meantime we give him lots to do and lots of exercise