Has anyone heard of Ian Dunbar?

ORIGINAL: Angelique

The biggest "bone" I have to pick with him is his use of human psychology and application of higher connective reasoning in dogs where it simply does not apply.

An example is his suggestion to yell "OUCH", storm out of the room, and slam the door in the dog's face if a dog is getting too bitey, and then went on into how the dog made the connection in it's brain and it would make perfect sense to the dog. A bit of a stretch if you ask me.

So do you really think that yelling ouch and leaving every time a puppy play-bites doesn't work? hmmm. This training strategy has been working very well for people for a long time. Learning that when you bite hard the game is over is very very simple. The most basic level of dog training. Dogs are capable of more complex learning than that.

Yet more ammunition for my theory that people who support CM are at a beginners level when it comes to understanding dogs. People who have invested years of time and effort into understanding learning theory, how the brain works, socialization, psychology, etc. are pretty universally against CM. People like me who have been into training and dogs for years, without any ego, money or politics involved.

I've had personal experience with both force based methods similar to CMs and more positive reward based training. I got my first dog in 1984. Back then the only training available to us was the old yank on the choke collar until they heel. I did get a CD title on him, but he never enjoyed training. The dogs I have now have been trained with positive methods and they love obedience work! Angelique, how many different training styles do you have personal experience with?

One trainer I know made a telling comment. She said that when she arrives at a clients house, the dog she has been working with is overjoyed to see her. Then she pointed out that the dogs CM is working with never seem too thrilled to see him.
 
Oh yeah, P.S. There are things that CM uses that do work and make sense. Behaviorists like Dunbar, McConnell and Dodman have been advocating them for years. They often recommend more exercise. The NILIF program that is so often recommended--the most important part of that program is no free affection and setting a limit on how much attention and affection the dog gets. The most effective part of CMs program is stuff that he got from the real behaviorists, things they have advocated for years.

samshine, you hit the nail on the head!  It is always the novices who love CM.  The one thing that they always say is that he is wonderful because he encourages people to train their dogs.  So, why is it that they don't seem to be curious about other behavior specialists?  I may not agree with that assessment of CM, but at least the fact that corvus is reading others' works gives me hope!  BTW, if you want spiritual, read "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier.  

"There is a quiet battle being fought in dog training circles, and Dunbar, though he didn't pick the battle, represents one side."

Not so "quiet" any more.

This battle has been going on for years, mostly at the owner level. It's the "Positive Only" APDT connected folks against...well, pretty much everyone else. They don't seem to like independant trainers or IACP members much.

I personally have always found this to be pretty sad.

I see a great benefit in the combination of positive reinforcement based training with Cesar's philosophies.

Handling methods can be modified. Ian Dunbar altered his methods, and so did the Monks of New Skete. My handling methods are different from Cesar's. I doubt Cesar will be doing everything exactly the same a few years from now. 

But the "Positive Only" faction, will not hear of it.

Clearly, this cannot even be discussed without the name calling, put-downs, and discrediting. How unfortunate. This does nothing towards the sharing of knowledge and the comparing of what works best in a particular situation with a particular dog. One size does not fit all and "training" works best when coupled with social and behavioral philosopies so that you are able to communicate as well as condition.

All Cesar did was bring the bad behavior of those who speak so "positive" yet behave so "negative" towards those who do not believe what they believe out into the open via the media and the internet.

There are plenty of very experienced independant canine professionals and those who belong to the IACP, who support him. 

[linkhttp://www.dogpro.org/]http://www.dogpro.org/[/link]


NOTE: Any further baiting and personal flaming will be ignored.

"Bones Would Rain From the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier.

Anne, thank you for recommending that book to me. That is the book that changed my life w/ my dogs, all dogs. It is now my favorite book in all genres.

ORIGINAL: nern

I just love Ian Dunbar.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.  He's an awesome trainer in my eyes.[]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
  BTW, if you want spiritual, read "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier.  

I will track that one down, too, then. I'm super critical of books in general and CM's lack of education REALLY comes through in the book that I'm reading. I'd love to read something with a good balance of science and spirituality. If you talk about spirituality to scientists, the majority of them will either openly laugh at you or cut you to pieces.

I just like to be open-minded because I've learnt that sometimes the people who are most filled with gems of wisdom are the people with less education and more field experience. I mean, the Professor who guided me through my honours project is by far the biggest mine of information on animal behaviour of any variety I have ever met. He's scarily intelligent, but also imaginative and has years and years of field experience tucked under his belt. I can ask him what he thinks of the most obscure and seemingly trivial behavioural pattern I might be witnessing in a species he hasn't even studied and he can still give me some clues about what it might mean. However, I've also met people who dived straight into field work and never went on to do a PhD or anything like it and they're a mine of information as well, just out of experience. So I believe it can benefit me and my understanding of behaviour to keep an open mind and at least give people a chance. I don't know if I'll get through the CM book yet because I have a habit of getting bored of things if they start to get repetetive, but I have to say that if I do, I'll feel more informed than I expect a lot of the people who like to attack the guy are.

But what would I know? Apparently I'm at a beginners level despite my 4 years of formal training in animal behaviour, due to my open-mindedness when it comes to the dreaded Cesar Millan. But as I've been saying myself, sometimes training and education don't count for much.

It was a Dunbar video that convinced me that there was a better way to train my dogs.  I saw it about 12 years ago and I was so relieved that there was a way to train without manipulating, forcing or using some sort of training collar.  And so my journey began.

ORIGINAL: samshine

ORIGINAL: Angelique

The biggest "bone" I have to pick with him is his use of human psychology and application of higher connective reasoning in dogs where it simply does not apply.

An example is his suggestion to yell "OUCH", storm out of the room, and slam the door in the dog's face if a dog is getting too bitey, and then went on into how the dog made the connection in it's brain and it would make perfect sense to the dog. A bit of a stretch if you ask me.

So do you really think that yelling ouch and leaving every time a puppy play-bites doesn't work? hmmm. This training strategy has been working very well for people for a long time. Learning that when you bite hard the game is over is very very simple. The most basic level of dog training. Dogs are capable of more complex learning than that.

It worked really well for me! Except I would pick Talus up and put her in another room after saying ouch. I learned it from the New Skete books, but I'm not surprised to hear it came from somewhere else. We got Talus really young and she was a fiesty pup, without this, I'm not sure I could have dealt. It was good for her to learn that if she went to far she got zero attention, and for me to learn that sometimes I needed a break from dealing with a nippy dog, or how I was riling her up to the point af a stronger nip. I'm confident my dog has taught me more about learning and teaching then my degree in kinesiology!
Anyway, to stay on subject w/ the tread, I hadn't heard of Ian Dunbar until I saw his name on the Sit Means Sit site and then here. I'll definately look into his work now though!

I had the interesting experience this weekend of reading both "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" and "The other End of the Leash" then watching Cesar's show. Ian Dunbar is next on my interlibrary loan list. What amazed me the most, was how much their training philosophies overlapped, McConnell's in particular. It was like McConnell was the textbook, and Cesar was the Cliff's Notes. There was a strong underlying theme of treating dogs like dogs and giving boundaries and leadership to our pets.

McConnell did a wonderful job of explaining the dog's interpretations of human speech and body language and how we can modify our human behavior to encourage a response in our canines. Cesar doesn't explain this with the detail that she does, but still manages to convey this with simple explanations. I think that is his major weakness is not emphasizing enough that most of what he does is through body language and attitude. People see the "bite" or the"alpha roll" but not the very subtle nuances that precede them, but that's human nature. It's like the people who watch a round-pen horse training video and think that all they have to do is chase their horse around a pen to train it. They entirely miss the concepts of body language and they way you use if to increase or decrease the pressure you put on the horse.

I have successfully used Cesar's body-blocking techniques for things like getting the dogs to stop barking at the door and it worked great. It was really interesting to read McConnell's book and find out exactly why this works and to refine my body language even further. Cesar's simplicity made it easier for me to do. If I had read her book first, I may not have been able to grasp this concept as quickly. Cesar explained exactly how to act (calm, assertive) and McConnell explained WHY it worked.

The biggest difference I noticed was their handing of agressive dogs. Cesar is much more hands on. There was a "worst dogs" episode on that had some downright scary pups. But when I watched closely, I could see that Cesar used very little force. He primarily communicated with the dogs using his posture and an amazingly calm and quiet presence. There were leash corrections, but not even to the extreme that the "trainer" that we went to this summer used for simple heeling exercises. (That guy was "yank and crank" in the true sense of the word.)

I will continue to see Cesar's work with aggressive dogs as more documentary than how-to. I think most people know they couldn't work with agressive dogs the way he does, any more than they would wrestle a croc after watching Steve Irwin on "The Crocodile Hunter." Yes, there are stupid people who ignore the "don't try this at home", but if we catered to them, you'd have to take nearly every television show off the air. (Especially home improvement shows, I've seen a ton of hideous tile jobs and some "faux" painted walls that should be a criminal offense!)

Anyway, I can definitely understand why people disagree with his methods. McConnell really emphasizes that most physical correction doesn't send a clear message or communicate the way we want it to. I just can't understand why they disagree so strongly. Cesar is physical, but not to the point that even the trainer the local 4-H kids use is. I guess I'm trying to say, there are tons of worse trainers out there, but I guess they aren't as big or as public of a target.

*I know everyone will probably tell me I completely missed the point of McConnell's book now, so I just want to add that I am only bring up the points that overlap with Cesar. There is a TON of other useful and downright fascinating information that would totally derail this post. Maybe we need to start a "book club" thread somewhere on this site!

I think you would find that McConnell, and others, use body blocking because they understand that dogs often use it in communication themselves.  Dogs, however, don't have opposable thumbs.  So, the use of "alpha rolls" and other physical techniques makes less (and sometimes no) sense to dogs than the use of basic body language, eye contact, or sharing of resources. 

As far as being repetitive is concerned, that's how I found CM's book, too.  And, it was exceptional in its lack of depth.  It's like the difference between reading obesity studies in a medical journal and reading an article on cellulite in the Enquirer.

I started this thread to find out a little bit about Ian Dunbar, NOT to start a debate including the CM thing.  I am just starting to read more about different trainers and their philosophies.  I wanted some insight, not to start a debate. 
 
Apparently I have to PM everyone to get this.  Everyone here amazes me, and not in a good way.
 
To those of you that responded to the original post; thank you.  I will investigate Mr. Dunbar's body of work more thoroughly.

I'm not sure that characterization is entirely fair, in light of the fact that the thread began with a caveat about an anti-CM sentiment.  Had the good Doctor been introduced, for example, by citing his work on biting and fighting dogs, perhaps the controversy would not have been awakened again so soon.  I really don't think there's anything you can do to quell what is essentially the larger argument.  It's more about the methods than the individuals, and whether what "works" is all that matters, when more than one method works. 

Sorry Xexes. You warned us there were CM references and maybe that was the thread's undoing. [:'(]

It's crazy how he gets everyone's blood up. Really crazy.

I haven't read any Ian Dunbar books yet, but I think we have one in our library. My mother was never into dog books until she started having problem dogs, and now she's got a veritable collection. I was never into dog books until I started thinking about how I wanted to change my training methods, now I'm trying to sample everything. I've heard great things about Ian Dunbar, though.

Apologies for feeding the thread hijack. [&:]

In retrospect I understand the why as to how the thread became what it is, but that was not my intent.  My apologies to feeding the fire here.

What? what? did you start this thread without me? []
 
"Claudia Kawczynska, editor of Bark magazine, is one of Dunbar's many fans. "It's irritating to see Millan treated as the expert. Ian is an animal behaviorist with decades of experience," she says, "He should be where Millan is."
 
"Dr. Patricia McConnell, author of "For the Love of a Dog: Understanding Emotion in Your Best Friend" and the animal behaviorist on Animal Planet's "Petline," goes as far as to say that Millan has put dog training back 20 years. "Dunbar is a world authority," she says, "and he should be the one with the celebrity."
 
"Though he hosted five years of a TV training show in England, "Dogs With Dunbar," Hollywood never bit on it, or on his other ideas"
 
Do i need to say more? yeap i would be angry too if i had to spend thousand of dollars and years on my education and suddenly a dude with none of those has more fame and money than me
 
I smell jealousy after reading those sentences in bold BUT i could be wrong []
 
I could study basquetball history and techniques for years, knowing how to shoot the ball, which elevation the ball should have, the measurment of the ball, etc. but if suddendly someone like Michael Jordan comes out to the scene with just his "natural born" techiques and gets more famous than me then i would say the same
 
Oh well life is unfair sometimes []