How would CM do it (Yeah, another one)

The first approach I see with Cesar is the stability of the dog.  Although he primarily deals with the messed up human and improving the communication within the owner/dog relationship, rehabilitating the dog, and seeing that the dog's basic needs are being fulfilled, the next step would be training the dog to perform the task.
 
He uses some positive reinforcement and luring methods on his show. But training comes into play to teach commands, tricks, behaviors, and tasks which is not what he does.
 
Once a dog is ready to go on to training, the joy of a rehabilitator is finding a "balanced" method trainer who uses primarily positive reinforcement based training.
 
These are actually two different fields. There is no bashing of the learning theory when it comes to training and that positive reinforcement is the best proven method when it comes to "training". But there are also social and behavioral issues which need to be addressed through communication and understanding so that the dog and human can establish a healthy relationship and move on to other enjoyable challenges.
 
JMO

You didn't even remotely answer the question Angelique.  The question was "How would Cesar train the dumbbell retrieve."

ORIGINAL: Xeph

You didn't even remotely answer the question Angelique.  The question was "How would Cesar train the dumbbell retrieve."

 
Ah, I sense much baiting in the air. Methinks to know what Cesar would do, one must ask Cesar.
 
Popcorn time...

...yeah, if I had time to bait somebody, I'd do it with people I know.  I'm rather sucky at baiting people.  It is an honest question, and if you're going to post, you should actually ANSWER the question instead of going completely off topic with the first reply.

Xeph, I think you asked a legitimate question, and I was actually looking forward to hearing his followers describe the method he uses, since I don't happen to know how he trains this particular behavior.  I actually learned the method that I now use from another trainer, and most of us are always looking for a better, or more effective way of doing things, so if the CM crowd knows how he trains this particular behavior, I hope they'll share it.  I hope that the +R crowd will refrain from posting their methods here, too.  If anyone wants to know my method, or would like to post their own, let's all respect Xeph's OP and either PM or start another thread.[]

ORIGINAL: Xeph

So, people say CM is a "behaviorist".  Well, even a behaviorist has to have knowledge of basic dog training, right?

Here is a question I pose to you:  How do you think Cesar would train a dog to retrieve a dumbbell?

This is more a question for Cesar lovers, and I would prefer those that are for +R didn't respond, or held off their responses until later.  Not becuase I don't want to hear what you have to say, but because I want to get honest opinions of how a Cesar promoter thinks Cesar would train the retrieve WITHOUT the (unintentional) coaching of replies from Cesar dislikers.

Actually a behaviorist does not need to know "basic" training, like i said before, a dog does not need to have the butt glued to the ground to be still which means a dog does not need to be teached the command "sit", a behaviorist job is not to show "tricks" but to cure unwanted behavior, trainig a dog how to retreive in not unwanted behavior dont you agree?

Asking a question like that is like asking a psychologist to teach a kid how to play guitar, thats not his job and you are not gonna tell me psychologist uses wrong techniques right?

Knowing how to TRAIN a dog is part of being a behaviorist!  You're looking to see what is causing a behavior, and you're helping somebody retrain the dog....so really, in my eyes, a behaviorist is just a trainer with more advanced knowledge.
 
A well rounded behaviorist should be able to train something as simple as the retrieve.  I didn't ask if training a retrieve was part of Cesar's job, I asked how he would do it.  So please either answer the question, or don't post.

From what I've heard, I suspect the forced retrieve method would appeal to him.

I think what Angelique was saying was that it's hard to know what a guy will do who bases his methods on fighting fires.  It's like my own herding trainer, who has been training sheepdogs for almost 50 years.  How would he train a retrieve?  I can't imagine, because I can't imagine he'd ever see the point.  It just isn't on his radar.  Does that make him an inferior trainer?  I don't think so, myself - but I don't know, I've never trained formal obedience.

ORIGINAL: Xeph

Knowing how to TRAIN a dog is part of being a behaviorist!  You're looking to see what is causing a behavior, and you're helping somebody retrain the dog....so really, in my eyes, a behaviorist is just a trainer with more advanced knowledge.

A well rounded behaviorist should be able to train something as simple as the retrieve.  I didn't ask if training a retrieve was part of Cesar's job, I asked how he would do it.  So please either answer the question, or don't post.

Wait, wait, i think you didnt read it, in that case i would write again, Asking a question like that is like asking a psychologist to teach a kid how to play guitar, thats not his job, did you read it? i'm glad to help every time you skip a part []

I think your mistake here is thinking that "to TRAIN a dog is part of being a behaviorist" when is not, yes you look to see what is causing the behavior but the dog does not need to know any commad or exercise for the behaviorist to come to a conclusion

So lets go and ask how a  psycoligist would train a kid to play guitar, do you think we will find an answer? or because thats not what a psycologist does he is just gonna answer "sorry thats not my area"

So since thats not a CM area i think you could write him an email and have a regular response of a normal guy who does not do that kind of training, i think that would be a personal qustion:

You can ask him at [email=powerofthepack@aol.com]powerofthepack@aol.com[/email]

Write to him and let us know too, i would like also to know more about things he does not do, i hope he answers []

If the psychologist knows how to play the guitar, he's perfectly capable of teaching somebody else how.

i'm glad to help every time you skip a part []

Check the snotty attitude at the door, please.

I'm not asking what part of his job is, I'm asking a simple question.  This isn't about whether or not it's part of his job.  I'm asking a simple question, somebody has yet to answer it.
 
If it will actually get the darned question answered, here, I'll reword it "How would CM react to a dog refusing the retrieve in a violent manner."

First a little background and then I will speculate an answer to Xeph's question.....

I have been working with a behaviorist by the name of Brandon Fouche. He has a website you can look up with some videos of him talking about his philosophies. He is all about calm submision, being the alpha to your dog and a bunch of other stuff people attribute to Cesar. He has a facility where he boards and rehabilitates dogs for many of the rescue agencies here in Los Angeles. He knows Cesar and we have spoken about him briefly. He informed me that Cesar used to be a trainer and he thinks because of that they have some differances of the way they work. Brandon mostly works with problems and shows you hands on how to change the behavior. I've seen him work with dogs and he really knows what works and has been able to teach me a thing or two.When I told him I was going to do some +R training he thought it was a fine idea although he doesn't do any.

I taught one of my Pits to retrieve a ball and place it in my hand by first teaching recall at home with treats and than, since they are not allowed at the dog park, I would only praise her when she brought the ball. If she ran by I would ignore her and walk away but if I could grab it and have her let go I would praise generously. I'm pretty sure that would be labled +R training but I assure you at times I would step in her path and use some body language to get her to comply. I have a feeling Cesar would use similair techniques only I think he would be a lot more effective at it than me.

I think the post are making a distinction between "Training" and "Behavior Modification".  Instead of retieve, would the OP be open to Posts that address the issue of a dog who is afraid to climb stairs.  In my case a big dog.  I think I understand what the +R people would say but I am like you, I am not seeing specifics from the CM's.  By the way I am only seeing specifics about CM's method from the +R's.

I would think that he may use positive reinforcement if he could with that particular dog.

There are some dog behaviorists and veterinarians who believe that positive reinforcement and approval techniques alone are appropriate for any dog, any time, in any situation. In my opinion, if a dog's behavior can be conditioned using treats and positive reinforcement, that's an ideal situation. It's always best for humans to approach a dog's behavior and training with a positive and compassionate outlook, and it's never, ever right to punish a dog out of anger. Dogs-and all animals-must always be treated humanely. p. 194 Cesar's Way

Sometimes you need to gather the facts before passing judgement.

If it will actually get the darned question answered, here, I'll reword it "How would CM react to a dog refusing the retrieve in a violent manner."

 
That's a totally different question [sm=rolleyes.gif]
 

Here is a question I pose to you:  How do you think Cesar would train a dog to retrieve a dumbbell?

 
See the difference? Totally different.
 
As far as a snotty attitude, this whole thread has a "snotty" air right from the start. It seems (IMO) that it was started for the purpose of discrediting CM and all those here who have anything positive to say about the methods he uses.
 
You honestly don't think that ANY one here can actually answer a question on how SOMEONE ELSE would teach a behavior. If you want an answer, you really should be asking CM. Everything else is just speculation and this thread is all about stirring the pot.
 
MarleysMom provided an excellent quote from CM book. Maybe you could find the answer to your question in it.