Crates are bad

    • Gold Top Dog

    Crates are bad

    My mother thinks crates are creul.  I'm not sure what to tell her.  Sometimes crates are necessary and I know that dogs can come to like their own crate space.  Right? 
     
    ps - don't have a dog yet so fill me in.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok  crates are cruel and it is ok to tether a dog in the kitchen  oh and the dog will tear up the sheet linoleum  and multiple other items in a rented apartment. (been there done that with the first dog over 30 years ago).
    Crates are cruel when you have possessions that you would rather keep intact.
    Crates are cruel when the secure your dog safely for traveling in a vehicle.
    Crates are cruel when they prepare your dog for a stay at a vet, kennel, or motel.
    Crates are cruel when the EMS personnel see the sticker on the window of the room where the crate is located and safely (on both species parts) remove them in the event of an emergency.
    Crates are cruel when the dog finds a secure and safe place to go when tired or the situation is to stimulating.
    Crates are cruel when dogs are turned into shelters because people got tired of chewed up furniture, carpets and other household items while the dog was left alone.
    Crates are cruel when dogs participate in shows and other activities and can be safely confined and involved.
     
    There are multiple really well written articles about crates and crate training on the web,,,just google away.  Each of the items I mentioned have to do with my personal experience or the personal experience of someone I know directly.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Lets not forget how cruel crates are when one has six large dogs who are fine with someone around, but occassionally need to be reminded that being snarky isn't ok, and who might escalate if they are loose and unattended in the house.  After all, that kitty crunchy *might* be worth drawing blood over......
    • Gold Top Dog
    crate training when done right, can make a dog feel like they have a space that is all their own.  it's their den, their safe haven, and it's portable so if you travel a piece of home can come with them.  crates are invaluable in house breaking, because dogs naturally do not want to soil where they sleep.  i've known many a dog who will put themselves in their crate to get away from over excited children coming to visit! 

    when people say crates are cruel, it's because they are looking at them from a human perspective.  can't do that when we are dealing with a canine. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    So, I know I've already recommended this book to you in another thread, and I'm re-reading it right now so it's fresh in my mind, but in The Culture Clash, Jean Donaldson talks about crate-training as a method of housebreaking. Her feeling is that crate-training is the quickest and most efficient way to housetrain a dog. How does this deal with the "cruelty" issue? Because she also notes how totally undoglike we expect our dogs to behave and how crappily we communicate to them what we'd like them to do and why. What we ask goes totally against their instincts most of the time. And then we punish them and confuse the heck out of them. A crate helps to clearly, quickly and safely help a dog understand what we're asking of them and it (if done right) involves no random (to a dog) punishments for doing things that to the dog seemed perfectly logical. She asks us to imaging ourselves as pets to another species. This other species has porceline water-filled flushing basins all over their houses yet every time we sit on one to eliminte, we get harshly punished. That's what our dogs experience when we first bring them home. The whole world is their toilet, yet they keep getting punished for using it. The one place a dog instinctively (unless they're from a puppy mill or abuse situation where at a very early age they've been forced to eliminate in their cages--just another reason to not get a pet store dog) won't eliminate is their sleeping and eating quarters. So, use that instinct as a way of helping the dog to understand this very undoglike seperation we have between inside and outside as far as what's a toilet and what's not. It really beats the alternative, for both human and dog. It's about a million times less cruel than the ole newspaper-on-the-nose method.

    As far as other pros on the side of crates, I have a million. One of my dogs has seperation anxiety. This is a panic disorder that some dogs develop and it is more than just being bored or lonely. It is a full-on anxiety attack. Conrad weighs 95 lbs and is incredibly strong. A dog like him having an anxiety attack is not something you really want loose in your house when you're not there. Some dogs with this disorder can't even be crated--they destory the crate and injure themselves seriously in an attempt to get out. We were very lucky in that Conrad did take to a certain kind of crate (the plastic kind--the metal bars kind was disasterous for him) and it has helped to rehabilitate him. It fills our need to keep him contained and to keep our house from being turned into a pile of rubble, but also it turns out that it completely fills his need to feel safe and hidden when we're not there to protect him. When we first were trying to deal with his anxiety, a very real possibility was rehoming him to someone who would never ever leave him alone. How many people are out there who can take a large dog with them everywhere? Probably not too many. The unspoken subtext to that plan was that he would very likely end up euthanized because no one can care for such a dog. So, what was crueler there? Crating or euthanizing?

    And finally, dear Marlowe. Marlowe is in fact not crated right now because we're lucky enough to live in a house that had an extra room that we weren't really using for anything. That's Marlowe's room and he's confined to that during the days. Marlowe's room has nothing in it except his crate (he does sleep in it, door open) and his toys. No furniture, no lamps, no books, nothing. So basically it's just a big crate. He is confined there when we're out of the house. And that only works becuase he's not one of the many, many dogs who have discovered the joys of drywall-eating or carpet-shredding. He's there because a few months ago when we gave him a bit more run of the house (though still not the whole house) because he'd proved to be generally pretty good alone with some minimal dog-proofing. Anyway, one day I came home to discover that he had eaten a bottle of ibuprofin. Ibuprofin is highly toxic to dogs and quite often fatal. My husband left a bottle out on the bedside table. Accidents happen. But this accident could have killed our dog. We rushed him to the emergency veterinarian where Marlowe spent a very expensive and very stressful weekend on an IV and being monitored 24 hours. Had he been crated or even just confined much more closely, this would not have happened. He could have died and had we not had the ability to pay for his treatment he probably would have.

    I volunteer at an animal shelter. A tremendous number of dogs are surrendered by their owners because of very basic behavioral problems that could be helped and even completely alleviated by proper crate training (problems such as failure to housebreak, destructiveness when left alone, and mild seperation anxiety). But people won't do it because they think it's cruel. Instead, they surrender thier dogs to a high-volume euthanizing animal shelter. That I just do not get at all.

    Other advantages to crating are that your dog has a traveling home, for when you go visiting other people with him; if you have multiple dogs you can be assured, if both are crated, that they are not getting into the Fight of the Century while you're not there to referee; the dog is already acclimated to close confinement if they ever, heaven forbid, have to spend a long time at a veterinary hospital (they keep the dogs in cages when they are not being actively worked on); and it helps the dog to understand that when you arne't around, that is the time for quiet napping, not for doing zoomies around the house, or exploring what's under the kitchen cupboard, or chasing the cat or any number of fun and interesting things a dog can come up with to do when you're not around to entertain them.
    • Bronze
    Much hearty agreement with Houndlove regarding crate training.  As any other training technique, it can be done to death, and become a form of abuse-but it is based upon the animal's natural inclination to not soil where they sleep.  And for my older animals, while the crate door isn't closed on them, they go in there voluntarily, because it becomes their special place to hide a bone, or just plain escape from the usual household frenzy.  It becomes a quiet haven-or in dog terms, a den which also a natural instinct.  My Wolfhound detests the vacuum, and so he retreats to his den while I am doing the necessary housework, and ventures out when the big old noisy machine is back in its closet.  I have always thought that the paper training and potty pad thing was schizophrenic in the extreme...First you tell the pup that it is okay to soil in the house, and then you are ranting at them to do it outside...I figure if they never get the notion of messing in my house, it is a better relationship all around.  My coonhound is creative-she was never crate trained and we adopted her at about a year and a half old.  She has adapted to the notion of not going in the house, with the exception of her bowel habits....Basically she has a specific time of day, and if our being away happens to overlap with that particular moment in time, she takes herself off to the bathroom and deposits her present in the bathtub, and goes back to whatever she was doing as if there isn't a darn thing wrong....As a scent hound, I think she rationalizes that the bathroom is where the other pack members go (meaning us people).   Of course if we are in the house, she will bay, prance, antagonize the other dogs, and generally make a nuisance of herself to be taken to the yard for the necessary activity.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Okay Sue that is weird because my coonhound has the same thing with his bladder and 7:00 PM. He's quite able to hold it all day, and all night, but around 7 PM he has to go out. It doesn't matter if he just came in from a walk 15 minutes before. He somehow saves it up. And at 7 he will let it fly and it is a LOT. If we don't let him out around that time he does it in the house, usually near a door but not necissarily. Our bed has been a target a couple times. Fortunately, that's a time of day when we're almost always home. After work and before any evening activities, right around dinner time.

    It does kind of make we wonder, given that he was kennel-raised, if this was the time of day in which he was turned out into a run to eliminate.
    • Gold Top Dog
    My dogs love their crates.  That's where all the good stuff happens: marrow bones, stuffed Kongs, sleeping undisturbed, safely riding in the car, etc.
    Think of a crate as an "artificial den" and the word "cage" should not creep into your vocabulary.  If you plan to travel, attend workshops or seminars, or compete, it's very handy to have a crate-trained dog.
    Please respectfully tell your mom that I am a positive reinforcement, dog-friendly, trainer, and I crate train my dogs - for their own safety!  They have the run of my house, but not when I want to keep them away from guests' creepy toddlers, other dogs, the UPS guy, etc.  Instead of causing a ruckus, or having one caused with them, they are safely contained with a Kong toy stuffed with goodies. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    My dogs love their crates. That's where all the good stuff happens: marrow bones, stuffed Kongs,

     
    Exactly... my one dog  that I still crate when we are gone during the day LOVES her crate... as soon as she sees me making kongs in the morning before I leave for work she races to her crate to await me opening the door for her. She gets so excited!!!
      
     
    Icyninja- if you do end up deciding on a greyhound CRATING IS CRUCIAL for at least the initial adjustment period ...so work on changing your moms attitude before that time.  Also, one of the videos I posted on your greyhound thread shows the greys at the rescue all nice content in their crates. They are all sleeping quietly and not unhappy in the least...they aren't crying or whining at all. The woman in the video even says at the very end,  that part of what she is showing is that "crates are not cruel..."  Here is the link again in case you didn't catch it on the other link...maybe your mom needs to see how content and at peace these doggies are...     
     
        
    [linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNzrOcxdhOc&mode=related&search]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNzrOcxdhOc&mode=related&search[/link]
     
    • Silver
    Well, your mom is obviously a parent. Lots of people "get it" when you point out how often we contain children, and how necessary that is.
     
    Infants and toddlers ride restrained in cars, in a car seat. At night they sleep in those beds with the bars on the side, cribs. I am convinced that if babies were as able to climb as well as puppies, cribs would have a top and a door just like a crate. Once the child is mobile, where do they go when mom needs to shower? In a playpen. Confined again.
     
    Used correctly, a crate serves the same purpose as a crib or playpen. A safe place for the puppy when we cannot directly supervise them. Of course crates can be abused by overuse. So can a crib. As long as the puppy/baby is getting enough attention, interaction, time with their family then a crate/crib is not cruel at all.
     
    Ask your mom if she thinks cribs are cruel. When she says no, then remind her of all the ways we confine children - just the same as a crate.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Is it cruel to put a baby in a cot?  Sure it would be cruel if the child was left in the cot for extensive periods of time.  But at night when you are asleep and can't supervise, don't you rest easy knowing the child is safe and can't fall, get themselves stuck somewere, hurt themsleves or wreck your posessions?  Isn't it great that they have a safe comfy place to go to during the day when they need a nap?

    IMO it is more cruel to give the dog too much freedom too soon before he is ready for it.  Your house, carpets and possessions will suffer, as will the dog if he ingests something toxic or something which causes choking or a blockage in his digestive tract - all of which could be life threatening, not to mention the fact that dogs can cause a lot of damage to your home - I'm talking THOUSANDS £/$.  In addition, the crate can assist you to PREVENT bad habits in the dog (inappropriate toileting or chewing for example) which is far kinder than allowing them to happen and then correcting the dog for them, or trying to teach him not to do those things later.

    If you have more than one dog, or if you have kids or even if you have kids coming to visit, a crate is a great place for the dog to spend some time so he gets a break from the kids/other dog(s) andit means everyone is safe.  If you feed meals and chews etc in the crate then the dog won't feel threatened by any kids coming too close and there is no risk of anyone getting bitten.  If the dog knows he has a guaranteed No-Kid-Zone, he can retreat there when he's had enough and won't need to resort to growling or snapping to get his message across.  Kids MUST be taught to leave the dog alone in the crate though, or it loses this value and when the dog is in there he is denied the option of Flight which can be a recipe for disaster.

    Think of it as a cot, not a cage. 
    • Never use it to punish the dog.
    • Never leave him in there too long and always make sure he eliminates before crating (forcing him to soil his crate is unutterably cruel and will mess up his training no end.)
    • Make it a wonderful place for him to be. 
    • Put comfy bedding in there. 
    • Feed his meals in there. 
    • Hide treats and toys in there for him to find. 
    • Put a blanket over it so its more like a den. 
    • Position it away from heaters or draughts so he neer gets too hot or too cold in there.
    • If you have to shut him in during the day, do so for very short periods only and build up slowly - always aim to let him out before he gets restless so his associatoin with the crate stays positive. 
    • When you shut him in, give him a special treat, like a kong or bone (raw, the right size and not too much marrow) that he doesn't get anywhere else and before long he will be impatient to get in there and for you to shut the door! 
    • Gold Top Dog
    crates are cruel when they are abused.  if the dog is properly crate trained it will love it's crate and use it when ever it wants peace and quiet...
    • Gold Top Dog
    I know I'm posting this a bit late ..but I wanted to put my thoughts in. I understand most people only use them over night while they are sleeping, but I'm completely against them. My dogs never potty in the house, and if they do, they do it on puppy pads. It takes time to work with them to do that, but I feel it's better than putting them in a crate at night. My babies sleep in bed with me. [:)]
    • Bronze
    My dogs are all crate trained.  And they sleep with me at night.  It's nice to know that if they can't sleep with me for whatever reason, they know how to act in their crate and they like to be there.  It's nice to have the backup, just in case.  And they are crated while I am gone at work.  They are not cruel at all.  They are invaluable.  It's much easier to crate train a puppy than an adult.  So do it early, you can always bring the dog to bed with you once it is trained.  It's harder to go the other way around.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Accepted,,,however, crating saves lives and keeps dogs in homes rather than the pound.