Housetraining - expectations?

She has been with us for about 2 weeks now - and is now 9.5 weeks old. How soon should we expect her to be able to hold it for more than, say, an hour or so? And should we expect her to complain when she needs to go out?

 
At that age she should be able to hold it for about 3 hours while crated, probably only 15-30 minutes while loose... will most likely have to go right/soon after eating, drinking, playing, and napping. I don't think very many dogs at that dog complain if they have to go out, that usually comes later if at all.

We have been VERY consistent with her, taking her out lots, always to the same place, praising her when she goes, crating her for short times during the day, etc. She almost always urinates when we take her outside now, so she is learning.

 
Sounds great!

But! She still sometimes pees on the floor inside, or even in her crate, with no warning! We'll be playing a bit and she'll suddenly stop and pee right next to us. Last night she did this while we were playing on the couch. Earlier today she woke up from a nap and peed in her crate, without so much as a whimper or complaint. As soon as we took her out she peed (a little bit) again.
When she does this it's impossible to catch, as she will not get up and sniff around, or anything, but suddenly pee before we know what's going on.
Is this only because she's too young to have bladder control?

 
Yes, that's exactly right. She probably doesn't know she has to go until a moment before she lets fly. As I mentioned above, playtime is a big pee trigger so always stop about 10-15 minutes into playtime and go out for a potty break. Naptime, again, potty time.

And even though she's adopting her crate as her home (and gladly goes in there to sleep) she still pees in there without making a fuss. Is this normal?

 
No, not really. Most common reason for that is the crate is too big. It should be just big enough for her to stand up, turn around, and lay down in. If the crate is larger partition it off with sturdy cardboard or wire partition if you have one. If there's any absorbant bedding in there take it out. Another possible reason for crate-soiling is if the pup got her start at a puppy mill or pet store her cleanliness instinct might have been broken down due to being forced to eliminate in the crate.

Thanks for the advice.

I have read that one cannot expect a puppy younger than 4 months to really be housetrained, or to hold it - is that true?

I am just so surprised that she doesn't complain when she's in the crate and needs to go out. We had another pee incident in the crate last night. She woke up at 2:30am and was not whimpering - just rattling around a bit. As I was getting on my coat to take her out she peed in the crate. Sigh. She is not really using one end of the crate to pee and the other to sleep: she basically peed right where she was sitting. Amazingly she didn't complain after the fact; I only noticed when I opened the door to take her out.

We are using a divider in the crate but maybe she still has too much room. We reduced her amount of space in the crate CONSIDERABLY and we'll see how she does with this setup. We bought a 36" crate large enough to hold her as an adult (Samoyed) and had blocked off about half of the crate area with the divider. Now it's down to about 75% blocked off. Do you think this will help?

If as you say her cleanliness instinct is off, anything we can do to restore it? We got her from a good breeder and we saw the breeder's setup: a crate with a separate area outside of the crate where the puppies would soil. So it's hard to imagine she was forced to soil in the crate, but who knows...

It sounds like the crate problem was just one of size. (The breeder's setup was fine.) You might see better results now that you've made it smaller, although to be honest she has now had some "practice" eliminating in there so there's no guaranteeing... take out her bedding just to be sure, because soft bedding that absorbs pee makes it easier for her to sit in it.
 
If the crating thing doesn't work out, consider going to an Xpen with an area where she is allowed to potty. (Or you could put her crate in a closed bathroom, same idea.) Then you'll have to transition to outside-only potty time gradually.

Different breeds mature at different rates, and the larger the dog, the longer it usually takes for bladder and bowel muscles to catch up with the amount that they consume.  Also remember, puppy food is easier to digest by nature and therefore passes through more quickly.  I really wouldn't expect long stretches much before four to five months old when the milk teeth start to come out.  What you are striving for now, is not getting them to hold it longer, but if you are courageous, you can see if you might be able to stretch an extra 5-15 minutes now and again without incident.  What you are doing at this age is convincing them of the proper place to relieve themselves, and hoping that they understand that well... and then you can expect a period of being asked to go out literally every hour or so, because their ability to comprehend is usually greater than the ability to comply with a set time schedule.  Things that help are not to free feed.  If you know when they ate, you can watch habits and have a good idea of when they will need the other.  Most pups under 4 months will need a visit to the rest facilities immediately after eating, because the full tummy is pushing on bladder and bowel.  You want them to get out immediately after having been asleep, because the urge to go is probably what woke them up.  You want to get them out right after playing vigorously, because they have worked things through the digestion, they are focussed on something other than holding their bladder, and quite frankly aren't really good at multitasking just yet.  You will probably see the ability to hold bowel for longer periods before the bladder issue is totally resolved, and some pups loose the bladder because they are holding the other.  Transition to less rich adult food also settles down the digestive cycle to a more permanent routine, but once again, that varies with recommendation of your vet, and your breeder regarding when puppy food is no longer desired.    You can take up water after say 7:00PM in the evening until the morning meal again, and that way, if you walk about 10:30 to 11:00 the pup should hold over til about 5:30-6:00 AM.   If your weather is exceptionally hot and you are concerned about dehydration, you can dole out ice cubes after 7:00 which doesn't have the same effect on bladder as an overwarm dog guzzling from the bowl.  Once the physical system has matured however, and once the dog firmly understands where to go...there should be no reason to not leave the water available at all times.  I firmly believe in mainting a feeding schedule for reasons other than just housebreaking.

Thanks, this is very helpful - mostly reinforcing things I already know, but good to hear it nonetheless.

Juneau is definitely doing better at holding the bowel than the bladder ... she is also getting to be very good about doing her business as soon as we take her outside (even if it's after a little accident in the house). I guess we just need to be patient and not set our expectations too high - after all she is only 10 weeks old!

ADORABLE Samoyed by the way!
 
We are experiencing the same thing with my Krystal as you are, except she is now 14 weeks old and STILL wetting her crate.  She's so young I haven't made it my priority to break her of it yet, plus unfortunately we both work so we can't let her out to the capacity of her being able to hold it, except at night she's close by in her crate where I can hear her if she needs to go out and I will get up to do so, but she never makes a sound, just goes in the crate.  I do keep a towel in there on purpose, knowing she just can't hold it for 8 hours yet, but our other dog Tucker (a larger dog) who we got at 16 weeks old NEVER wet his crate from day one, and had no trouble with 8 hours.  We don't know her history before she went to the rescue, so the former owners may have caged them, or kept them in a small area where they had to eliminate and then lay in it.  At the rescue, she was kept in an outbuilding with a doggy door.
 
Krystal happily pees in there without a thought, even when I've removed the towel knowing she'd only be in there for 2 hours.  I ALWAYS make sure to let her go before she goes in the crate, and keep a regular feeding schedule and take up water after 7:00pm.  Her crate is not overly large either, if she curls up on one end there's some room, but if she lays on her side and stretches her legs out she takes up the whole crate.
 
She also will occasionally pee right in front of us unexpectedly when we think she shouldn't have to go, and has been out recently, but I will say it's gotten less and less.  I usually stick with letting her out every hour, with additional let outs after the "key" times that were mentioned.  She knows to go outside, but just doesn't know NOT to go inside.  I'm thinking she'll be just about 100% housebroken by the time she's 16 weeks or so.  Right now I'd say she's about 85%, aside from the wetting the crate.  They eventually do get it, having just went through it with Tucker I know that!  He was 16 weeks old when we got him, and was completely housebroken in 4 weeks.

Well there's not really any more advice to add, but I just want to emphasise:  Peeing in the crate is a major no-no!  The crate is one extremely useful tool we have to teach a pup to "hold it" because most pups don't like to soil their bed.  If they are peeing in there, it's either because

a) as jones said, the crate is too big,

b) they have overridden the instinct against soiling their bed through past experience (poor husbandry with the breeder/shelter/puppy mill/current owner - again a la jones)

c) they have been crated too long and/or

d) they have not been given adequate opportunity to eliminate before being crated.

Soiling the bed is initially very distressing for the dog and must be avoided AT ALL COSTS!!  Once it stops being distressing, it means the pup has over ridden their natural instinct (see b) and training will now be much harder and more complex - it will probably take months longer to housebreak the dog.  Confining the dog to the crate is no longer a reasonably safe bet that he will not eliminate while you are unable to supervise, which is what makes it such a useful housebreaking tool in the first place.  The dog may even come to regard it as his preferred place to eliminate and will manage to mess in there even if he's been taken outside to potty recently, because simply being in the preferred toilet area will stimulate him to need to go again.....  So avoid this habit occurring at all costs and if it does, break it early!!!!  Puppies don't often grow out of bad habits, they grow into them!  Inappropriate toileting is very hard to correct later because the act of eliminating is so rewarding in itself that the dog is positively reinforced each and every time he does it.  So make sure s/he goes in the right place!!!!!

Chuffy,

Any advice (other than making the crate smaller) about how to correct this problem?

One way to read what you're saying is that it would be better to NOT crate the puppy at times when she might soil the crate (e.g., during the day or for periods longer than, say an hour). We have been leaving the puppy in a safe (small) room in the house when we have to leave her alone for more than an hour or so. Sometimes she will have an accident in that room, but at least it's not in her crate. Thoughts?

It sounds like you do exactly the same as me.  I do crate new puppies at night (obviously for periods longer than an hour) but I don't crate them for longer than that during the day while they are still small.  With the last pup we bought a collapsible pen and attached it to the crate.  The crate was the sleeping end which the dog had free access to and the rest of the area was papered for ease of cleaning if the dog had an accident.  He had a water bowl down, and some safe chews and toys.  He was still enclosed and couldn't wreck our furniture or harm himself by chewing on soemthing dangerous, but there was no risk of him soiling the crate.  If we were going to be out for more than a few hours we made sure someone came to check on him, let him out, clean up if necessary etc.  I know he's less likely to even try to hold it if he's not confined to his crate, but lets face it, a few accidents indoors are inevitable and I don't see having to clean up the odd puddle or even poop is such a big deal.  I know its a possibility so I make sure the puppy is confined to an easily cleaned area.  As long as I am vigilant the rest of the time and the pup gets rewarded well for going in the right place, he will get there.  But I'm not so relaxed about crate soiling - partly because I really believe its cruel to the dog to allow it to happen.  

ORIGINAL: juneaudog
We are using a divider in the crate but maybe she still has too much room. We reduced her amount of space in the crate CONSIDERABLY and we'll see how she does with this setup. We bought a 36" crate large enough to hold her as an adult (Samoyed) and had blocked off about half of the crate area with the divider. Now it's down to about 75% blocked off. Do you think this will help?

Just an update: this DID work -- beautifully. No accidents in the crate for over 12 days!

[sm=dance.gif] Woo hoo!  Way to go!

I'm happy to say that now that we removed the towel from the crate, my Krystal hasn't wet her crate in 5 days.  We have always made sure to give her ample time to relieve herself before putting her in the crate, I just think that she learned the towel would absorb her potty and she could just push it to the side so she would wet without thinking twice about it.
 
I'm so relieved not to have to wash 3 loads of towels per week any longer, and she's finally on the proper path to a well-adjusted dog!

We got Leroi at 8wks and he was broken and good to go at 12 or 13.  He's 4 months now, and the other day I stuck him in his crate after he had peed and I went out for 1.5 hours.  I came back to him howling like a wildebeast because he had peed a bit in his crate.  No idea why, but I understand that as a puppy, even after they're housebroken, you may get a totally random and unexplainable accident out of the blue.  When he was younger and had accidents in his crate he'd go berserk - that's that "I don't want to soil my den" instinct kicking in.  He sounds like someone's torturing him.  He only pooped in the house once, a day after we got him and never pooped in the crate.  Whenever he peed in the crate it was usually our fault for not paying close enough attention to our feeding, sleeping, playing timelines and emptying him out properly before putting him in there for an extended period of time.  I took any bedding out of the crate after a couple day of accidents and that nipped it ni the bud.  Pee has nowhere to soak into when it's on hard plastic! 

I have read that one cannot expect a puppy younger than 4 months to really be housetrained, or to hold it - is that true?

 
This is absolutely false. Take a look at these 7 week old pups using the litter box: [linkhttp://poodlejunction.com/video/July04-pups-pee-in-litterbox.htm]http://poodlejunction.com/video/July04-pups-pee-in-litterbox.htm[/link]