Dog Community

Desperate/ 8 month old pup

Posted : 7/23/2006 2:42:35 AM

Hello! I was searching the web out of mere desperation, and I am so thrilled to have found this forum.

I am absolutely desperate for suggestions, help, support -- I hope I've come to the right place.

This is regarding my 8 month old puppy, Sadie, a cockapoo. I've had her since she was 10 weeks old. She is extremely bright -- within less only a few days working on each command, with repetition and treat reinforcement, she mastered each basic commands (sit, shake, stay, down).

And almost immediately after getting her she seemed to get the basic idea that she was supposed to do her business outdoors (as I had been bringing outside around the clock, and always reinforcing w/praise, etc when she did go while out there).

So essentially, what I am trying to say, and I am sorry for such a long way in saying it, but bottom line -- I'm following all the "rules" of how-to's with pups, and morever she is clearly a smart dog.

But every week or so, from the beginning, it seemed she would have slip-ups, from really "getting it" re: supposed to go outdoors to not getting it at all. It has been a merry-go-round nightmare working with her on this issue.

Where I'm at right now (and her being eight months) is: She never (and never did) alert me when she has to go. Never. She doesn't stand at the door nor bark to get my attention, does nothing to alert me. So I am constantly just on top of the time, her schedule, etc. and taking her out.

She does not urinate inside the house (thank god, she has not been doing that for a few months now). BUT she does poop! ...

She poops 3x a day. At six a.m. when she is first taken out in the morning to walk around, thankfully she is so used to this schedule that she does do this poop while she is outside. And an evening poop around 9:00 pm - and with this one, she usually will do this one outdoors, as this is the time I always take her out to walk around before bed (and like the a.m one I suppose it's the consistent schedule she is used to and will poop when outside). So for the most part it is ok with these two times, unless, however, there's a slight deviation in schedule/time and then she will just poop in the house.

But the biggest issue is she poops in the mid-afternoon in between the two above, and this one she will do in the house always. Despite me taking her out several times hoping to be out at the right time. Rather she rarely ever goes while outsdie, an then makes no effort to go to the door, alert me, etc. when she does have to go. It is driving me nuts; it's like she just does NOT get it.

I am tired of having gates up around my house to keep her retained in the uncarpeted rooms. And I am also tired of finding/picking up dog crap. I never imaged at 8 mo's old I'd still be contending with what I consider "infant" behavior.

And strangely she does know never "goes" in the kitchen/family room, uncarpeted and the area she spends most of her time, but she will poop in any/all other rooms that have carpet. It has gotten to the point of her jumping over gates, pushing them to the side, breaking them, etc to get to the other side - and once she gets to the other side she craps in the carpeted rooms. I can't keep my eyes off her for a minute.

WHAT is the problem here. Why is this dog not getting it?

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am really desperate. I am really losing my patience with this dog. Thank you so very much!

PS: Another issue, but unrelated, she tinkles when she gets excited. My vet said she should stop doing this when she was about 6 mo's old. BUT .. she never stopped. She does this when she sees people (when someone comes into the house). I can control this by having her meet visitors outside first, BUT ... she also tinkles when she sees, and chases by the way, my ten year old cat. As you can imagine what a disaster, as she leaves sprinkling pee pee trails all over the place. I'm just going out of my mind, I love her .. but I really am desperate and losing it.

lisa baker

Posted : 7/23/2006 7:02:49 AM

you need to go back to step one and crate her if she is not in direct contact with you. or you can keep her tethered to you for a while too. any age dog can be housetrained, you need to be consistent and patient.

laura

Posted : 7/23/2006 11:43:49 AM

How frustrating for you! There are some very experienced ppl here who will be able to give you ideas. In the meantime, I agree with the other poster, you should go back to basics. If you know she always does a poop sometime between say 11a.m. and 3pm, then crate her or tether her to you with a long line. Take her out at least every hour and give her a chance to do her business. Don't play games, just see if she poops. If she does, praise her to the heavens, throw a party, play with her favourite toy. If not, calmly come back in and carry on with your day, keeping her crated or tethered. Repeat this until she does go poop. It's a pain for you, but so is clearing up after her!

I'd also suggest you teach her a word to associate with poop and wee. The same as you taught her sit, down etc., you can teach her to potty on command. When she does her business in the morning and evening, praise her "Good potty" or whatever words you're comfortable with. Eventually you'll be able to just say these words, and if she needs to do anything, she'll do it.

Also, when you take her out, ask her in a cheerful voice "Do you want to go OUT?", then take her out. After several days of this, call her to you, and THEN say "do you want to go OUT?" and take her out. This can help her to make an association with alerting you that she needs to go out. Sounds like at the moment going out is something that "just happens", rather than you moulding it into a behaviour from her. Not sure if I've explained that well, sorry.

jones

Posted : 7/23/2006 1:17:29 PM

What a conundrum. I guess you really have to treat her as an unhousetrained dog to resolve the problem. I wouldn't worry about her ever telling you she has to go outside - I really don't consider that part of being housetrained. Holding it until being taken out is the definition of housetrained, period.

About the excited/submissive peeing... I have bad news. I have a cocker spaniel who's 15 months old and he still does it. I hoped upon hope that he would grow out of it but he never has. But he has made good progress and it's more a sometimes than an every time thing. What we did was, as much as possible, ask people to approach him in a certain way - calmly, not making eye contact, crouching while facing away to the side, and reaching under his chin rather than over his head to pet him. We also managed it by having him on leash, in a down/stay, when company arrived at our house, and not letting him greet the company (or vice versa) until he had calmed down (no whining, no wiggling). Over many months of this he has gotten to the point that even when people approach him the "wrong" way, he can often manage to stay calm enough not to pee. Part of this is probably maturity but partly I think he's learned that he doesn't need to put on that submissive display when he meets people, because they're going to be gentle and pet him nicely. I can't help you with the cat, though, Russell's our only pet!

Good luck![

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Deana Kiser

Posted : 7/24/2006 11:55:46 AM

Thank you all for your suggestions!

I think the word assocation may be a very big help.

From day one I have been saying "let's go out" when we go out, and she knows what this means; she runs to the door before I can even get her leash together. And while out there I encourage her to go by saying "let's go" and tug at the leash/collar a bit if she is just fooling around; she will pee immediately when I do this. .... So she already understands this concept; she has for months now. (and yes, I make a big deal of it -- "good girl", prasining, and give her treats I take out with me in my pocket.

However, she seems to associate this whole concept with pee only. It doesn't seem to be associated with poop. I think I need to make her understand poop is part of this practice as well. From now in the mornings and evenings (when she generaly does go when outside) I am going to praise her and be sure to call it something else -- like good girl; you went pottie. (As opposed to just, "let's go", and then "good girl" when she goes pee. In fact, maybe I should only give her a treat when she poops, not just when she pee's? ... as she does seem to have that part down already.

As far as the crating -- the crate is still very much part of her schedule; I've never stopped using the crate. She isn't allowed to roam the house if I'm not home (which is not frequently, as I am disabled from a chronic pain, neurological condition, and am home most of the time). Also she still sleeps in it during the evening. And she in the afternoon (while waiting for the afternoon poop) she spends time in it. Often we'll go outside and she does nothing, so when we come in I put her in the cage, hoping the next time we go back out she will do the business this time. Unfortunately, though this can go on for hours, so I hate to keep putting her back in the cage all afternoon. So I let her out of it, and without fail, that is the time she poops -- somewhere in the house while my back is turned.

PS: Also thanks for the information on the tinkling. I had no idea this was submissive behavior. And thanks for your suggestions on how visitors should greet her.

Julitza

Posted : 7/24/2006 12:33:39 PM

For the submissive urination: Our Golden did the same and when we came home we would totally ignore her until she was completely calm, and once she was calm we would casually pat her on the head, and kept doing that until she was calm enough to be petted without urinating.

Shes now 2 1/2 and she can be greeted normally once we get home.

The whole greeting took about an 45 minutes to an hour but it was well worth it!

Deana Kiser

Posted : 7/24/2006 12:48:52 PM

Hi Julitza,

Do you mean you'd keep her in the crate, until she was calm, and then take her out and pet her? Or she could be out, and wouldn't pee if you weren't petting her?

Our problem is ... if she's not in the crate, as soon as someone comes in the door she will run up to them, around them, near them -- anything, and just tinkle then and there. They don't even have to pay a bit of attention to her.

So what we have been doing is having her meet people outside first before they come in. But it's gotten to be a big pain the butt. So I am willing to try other alternatives.

Julitza

Posted : 7/24/2006 12:54:44 PM

Ah, so she is crated when you are gone. Our Golden was only confined to the kitchen so that a bit different.

But where is the crate located? Will she still pee if you just let her out and completely ignore her? If she does do you think you can walk around where she is crated without her getting too excited?

The technique I stated in my last post is perfect if you have guests over, have them ignore her until she calms down.

Im thinking if you let her out and throw something yummy on the floor so the second she gets out she concentrates on the treat and not you it will give you the chance to retreat and ignore.

Did that make any sense?

Xerxes

Posted : 7/24/2006 1:14:17 PM

And strangely she does know never "goes" in the kitchen/family room, uncarpeted and the area she spends most of her time,

This immediately tells you that she's capable of being housetrained with NO problems. She doesn't soil the area in which she lives.

Sounds to me like she got too much freedom too soon. She needs to have her movement restricted. Crating is probably the best option. As she becomes more reliable you can open up more space as required, one room at a time. Another practice is to reward, reward and reward some more when she poops outside. If you are disciplining or getting angry with her when you find the poops inside, you are, IMO teaching her to hide it better not to "not go in the house." So restrict her freedom of movement, reward when she goes outside, ignore the inside incidents and keep her on a rigorous schedule. This should keep your house from getting soiled and your pup from being "bad."

Deana Kiser

Posted : 7/24/2006 1:45:03 PM

Julitza,

She does not do this tinkling business with me or anyone in the family.

She only does this with visitors (and the cat).

Even if the guests ignore her she will run up them and pee immediately, unfortunately.

Deana Kiser

Posted : 7/24/2006 1:51:31 PM

Hi there, Xerxes -- yes, I'm aware that she is capable of training ...

and that she knows the gated space in which she lives is a no-no, unfortunately she can't seem to recognize the other spaces (in which she is not allowed is also a no-no).

She is still crated -- all evening, and on-and-off during the day. And she has limited space to roam, if not in the crate (family room and kitchen - which are essentially the same room, as the mesh into each other; and the only space in my house without carpet; hardwood floor in family room and tile in kitchen).

I think you have a very valid point re: the yelling when she does go in the house, and this is, in turn, teaching her to hide it. As I have to admit -- I am absolutely losing patience with her when she does sneak over the gate into the carpeted rooms and/or upstairs and takes a crap there. I do scream, bringing her to the door, etc, etc -- and lose sense of calm about myself. I suspect this may, in fact, make her want to hide it ...

as when I find a pile of poop I yell, and she slithers and hides ... she KNOWS she's done wrong. And I am finding the poop in places such as: underneath the piano, beyond desk, etc.

I will try to stay more calm.

tiffy

Posted : 7/24/2006 2:13:19 PM

Can you leave her in the crate when the visitors first enter? Give her time to calm down, then let her out.

Deana Kiser

Posted : 7/24/2006 2:26:05 PM

Hi Tiffany,

Yes, that's what we do if someone comes unexpected - we put her in the cage before we answer the door. If then at any time we let her out of the cage, we must first take her outside to pee; then she is allowed to come in and run up to the person, etc. (When her bladder is empty - there's no problem).

But if someone is coming and we are aware of it, and/or we see them pulling in the driveway, we take her out on the leash and meet them in the driveway or walkway, etc. (And we always have to warn them to backup a little when she runs up to them, otherwise she will end up peeing on their shoes/legs).

This is just an ongoing issue with her and people -- she just LOVES people, but the peeing when she seems them is annoying, at best. Another example: I've taught her the property boundaries of the the yard by walking her on a leash around it from day 1 -- however, for the most part, she can not be trusted unleashed. If she sees someone walking/running along the sidewalk in from the house -- she will run lightining speed to them, jumping on them, etc -- and peeing while doing it. These people are NOT petting her -- they are on a run, and don't even know she's there/she's coming at them, until it's too late. Now that was embarrasing.